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title: Discuss
layout: page
permalink: /discuss.html
redirect_from:
  - /discuss/index.html
  - /rules.html
  - /rules/index.html
excerpt: "Introduction to my public instant messaging chats"
navigation: true
lang: en
robots: noai
---

I have multiple instant messaging chatrooms.

- [The ones listed below](#the-links) are for comments to my blog, this website in general, my FOSS <s>spam</s> activity and a contact point for reaching me in general for not so private matters. They are connected together by [Matterbridge](https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge/#matterbridge).
- Many linking here utilize the rules listed below.
- Others are simply curious about protocols, transports, relays, bridges, etc. _Why did they end up on this page when they could have ended up anywhere else?_

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<em lang="fi">Automaattinen sisällysluettelo</em> / <em lang="en">Automatically generated Table of Contents</em>

- [Rules](#rules)
- [Languages](#languages)
- [The links](#the-links)
- [A couple of words on protocols](#a-couple-of-words-on-protocols)
- [And on transports, relays and bridges](#and-on-transports-relays-and-bridges)

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## Rules

[Contributor Covenant 2.1](https://www.contributor-covenant.org/version/2/1/code_of_conduct/) is the primary Code of Conduct here (which isn't forked due to this community forming around me and my website. Any project growing bigger would have its own), but we do have a couple of other rules too:

- Don't send private messages without asking for a permission first unless your message is purely moderation related.
  - Please include your business in your first message and not only greeting. See [nohello.net](https://nohello.net) for more about that.
- Don't share personal affairs of other people outside of the room. This includes, but isn't limited to, gender/sexual/romantic orientation questioning, plurality, religion, etc. When in doubt, assume it's private.
  - Mind the limitations of machines and people especially in the private side. Transport encryption is not [end-to-end encryption](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-to-end_encryption), which can be broken by a compromised client device (including, but not limited to bot/relay/bridge) or the protocol in question may neglect to encrypt something [like Matrix does for reactions](https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec/issues/660).
- For other matters, [_Chatham House Rule_](https://www.chathamhouse.org/about-us/chatham-house-rule) applies.

## Languages

As for languages; English is preferred due to majority of the discussion
participants speaking it, but Finnish and Esperanto are also fine.<br> I sadly
don't consider myself capable of holding a discussion in other languages, but
I do hope to be able to grow this list in the future.

## The links

- IRC@Etro, [`#mikaela.info`](ircs://etro.mikaela.info:6697/#mikaela.info)
  my selfhosted IRC server.
  - [(Recommended) Gamja webchat](https://irc.etro.mikaela.info/#mikaela.info)
  - `MapAddress etro.mikaela.info otzmigofmchtadpek223bkmrzqoa6mmvhmr5dxqurcrtwalizfibuxid.onion`
- [LiberaChat], [`#mikaela.info`](ircs://irc.libera.chat:6697/#mikaela.info)
  - [Gamja webchat](https://web.libera.chat/gamja/#mikaela.info), [KiwiIRC webchat](https://web.libera.chat/#mikaela.info). _Warning: Libera.Chat has no message history_
  - `MapAddress palladium.libera.chat libera75jm6of4wxpxt4aynol3xjmbtxgfyjpu34ss4d7r7q2v5zrpyd.onion`
- [Matrix], [`#aminda.eu:pikaviestin.fi`](matrix:roomid/ruWhXaXgrPjaSSecvb:matrix.org?action=join&via=matrix.org&via=tedomum.net&via=pikaviestin.fi&via=beeper.com&via=envs.net),
  a decentralised conversation store.
  - [Convene webchat](https://letsconvene.im/app/#/join/%23mikaela.info:matrix.org)
- [PirateIRC], [`#mikaela.info`](ircs://irc.pirateirc.net:6697/#mikaela.info)
  - [Gamja webchat](https://webchat.pirateirc.net/)
  - `MapAddress irc.pirateirc.net cbmtec5xuhpjwjq245kpp5jk2wij63ydgu5vwbxvdamzibfubc5uzaqd.onion`
- [Telegram], [invite link](https://t.me/joinchat/OEuthjzmg60xNzA0) a
  popular instant messenger with open source clients.
- [Twitch], [Ciblia](https://twitch.tv/Ciblia), a propietary game streaming
  platform.
  - Expect my streaming to happen in [mikaela@libremedia.video](https://libremedia.video/accounts/mikaela/)
    (PeerTube) instead.
- [XMPP], [`mikaela.info@conference.blesmrt.net`](xmpp:mikaela.info@conference.blesmrt.net?join),
  a federated chat protocol.

[ergochat]: https://ergo.chat/
[liberachat]: https://libera.chat/
[nixnet irc]: https://docs.nixnet.services/IRC
[matrix]: https://matrix.org/
[pirateirc]: https://pirateirc.net/
[telegram]: https://telegram.org/
[twitch]: https://twitch.tv/
[xmpp]: https://xmpp.org/

**_NOTICE ON LOG AVAILABILITY!_** The logging and history visiblity varies by protocol and thus
users joining in the future could see messages up to one year or longer in the
past.

## A couple of words on protocols

- _IRC_ was invented in 1988 and regardless of developing integrated message
  storage since then, it's still _trivial to setup_ and runs well on _a toaster_.
  _IRC servers_ are generally _[easy to enable Tor support on](https://github.com/ergochat/ergo/blob/master/docs/MANUAL.md#tor)_ and _IRC clients_
  widely come with _[proxy settings](https://hexchat.readthedocs.io/en/latest/tips.html#tor)_ where _[Tor can be enabled](https://weechat.org/files/doc/stable/weechat_user.en.html#irc_tor_sasl)_. My personal
  _IRC_ history begins in 2010 as user and since then I have also opered
  mostly on _Charybdis+Atheme_ and nowadays on a couple of _Ergos_.
- _XMPP_ runs on _a bit more powerful toaster_ and the servers talk to each other
  without prior approval, it was originally introduced in 1999. I don't have
  a record on when I begun using it as _all multi-protocol chat apps_ that were
  common even before 2010 supported it. I haven't had a need or desire to _selfhost_.
- _Telegram_ was introduced in 2013 and is a popular _instant messenger_ with
  many _open source clients (not server)_ also on minority platforms (by third
  parties). It's favoured by many for stickers and ease-to-use, while that
  comes with _concern on security and privacy_.
- _Matrix_ was introduced in 2014 and I started using it in 2016. Many of the
  _client and server implementations are heavy_, _especially on server side_ requiring what to outside looks
  like _a constant maintenance_ to deal with the _implementation performance issues_,
  _I am not interested in even trying to selfhost a Matrix (home)server and bridges
  until the situation significantly improves_. _[Matrix clients also seldom support connecting through Tor easily](https://github.com/vector-im/element-meta/issues/200)_,
  while the _[Synapse server by Matrix.org team doesn't support connecting](https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/5152) through [I2P or Tor](https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/5455) at [all](https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/issues/7088)_.
  - Exception: [Hydrogen](https://hydrogen.element.io) ([GitHub](https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web))
    is the only client I have encountered that works well on Nokia 1 TA-1047
    or in other words passes the so-called toaster test. It does self-describe
    as _A minimal Matrix chat client, focused on performance, offline
    functionality, and broad browser support_, which it redeems.
  - Good luck to users of either [dendrite.matrix.org or matrix.org for entering captchas in Matrix clients.](https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix.org/issues/1314)

## And on transports, relays and bridges

- One of the marketing points of _XMPP_ was to connect to other protocols by
  means of transports. They plug into a _XMPP server_ and can be provided either
  by yours or be open for other _XMPP servers_.
- The word _relay_ is often used on _bots which copy messages from one protocol/network
  and paste (or more simply said relay) it to another_. They aren't transparent and thus the
  messages from them appear to be coming from bots beginning with the message
  sender instead of being completely transparent. This is what is _commonly
  used on IRC to connect to other IRC networks or protocols_.
  - _Matterbridge regardless of the name acts like a relay. Like IRC and XMPP_,
    it also _runs on a toaster requiring only [the binary](https://github.com/42wim/matterbridge/releases)
    and a [config file](https://gitea.blesmrt.net/mikaela/gist/src/branch/master/irc/matterbridge/matterbridge-example.toml)_
    being trivial to setup anywhere quickly or move around.
  - _[Recent IRC development allows (RELAYMSG)](https://github.com/ircv3/ircv3-specifications/pull/417)_
    allows relays to be transparent making messages appear from users outside
    of the channel that don't actually exist. This is similar to _Discord webhooks
    (that Matterbridge also supports) and Matrix Discord bridge_.
  - Common complaint from _Matrix_ users is that they look ugly, but as shown
    by _IRC and Discord_, that doesn't have to be the case
    _[and I hope Matrix will fix their issue allowing low-budget "toasterbridges"](https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec/issues/840)_.
- _Bridges are popularised by Matrix_ and _are almost XMPP transports_. However
  while _XMPP transports connect to the other protocol, bridges attempt to
  copy everything on both sides_ so _Matrix users_ see each other directly instead
  of through the _transport_ on the other side and on the other side of _open protocols_
  _Matrix users_ can be interacted with as if they were native to it.
  - Unlike _XMPP_, the _bridges also tend to be heavy and require a full homeserver
    setup._ The _IRC bridge also generally requires blessing from the IRC network_
    and while some public bridges exist, they _move the control away from you_
    hijacking the room to _their rules_ and often have _performance trouble
    compared to "local toaster matterbridge"._