mikaela.github.io/_drafts/2015-07-04-black-days-of-grsm-channels.md

---
layout: post
comments: true
title: "Extracting anxiety: black cdays of ##abgilpqt+"
category: [english]
tags: [english]
---

*This post (if ever released) is to extract my anxiety and goes through
 very anxious logs which understanding of is required for understanding
 the end.*

## Facebook: 2015-06-18T8:44

*Shortly what has happened and what will happen.*

> I am not sure if I linked to this policy of handling attacks towards me the same way as attacks towards other users at IRC, but today, week after writing it got used again.

> First in April one GRSM channel I co-founder had difficult time as there was disagreement whether it's for everyone or only GRSM. I took not so wise actions there as can be seen in commit log of mikaela.github.io, but in the end it was made GRSM only welcoming others too as long as they keep in mind that they are in our space.

> There was one attack towards me that was never resolved: "> you co-founded a channel for gender and sexual minorities yet you don't identify as a gender, or sexual minority even though you /are/" implying that I don't identify as ‪#‎GirlsLikeUs‬ or demiromantic asexual (even if I have written those to my biographies and everything everywhere) and visit groups for both minorities.

> Today they appeared on another channel that I co-founder and I asked if they are willing to apologize for that which then resulted to "I wish you'd drop it. And for the record I don't like being quoted out-of-context. For the record, I still have an issue with you running queer channel that marginalizes queer people in the name of being accepting of straights."

> The action I took was AKICK with message explaining the issue to them and the original paste in private OP information.

> I also have no idea what they wish me to do with the original channel as the website for it starts by "We are a channel for gender, romantic and sexual minorities. Other people are also welcome to join and read, but keep in mind that they are a guest to our space." Maybe they want us to kban all cis hetero people and require everyone to be out as GRSM on the channel.

> * The policy: https://mikaela.info/…/20…/06/11/trying-to-be-better-op.html 

> * The first channel: https://abgilpqt.github.io/ 

## History of ##abgilpqt+ of 2015-04-08 and 2015-04-09

```
==> 2015-04-08.log <==
[00:06:25] *** Joins: sinma (~sinma@2a01:e35:8a26:6480:6a17:29ff:fe51:ff86)
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[00:53:11] *** Quits: Ed1Ross (~Thunderbi@3e6b379a.rev.stofanet.dk) (Quit: Je Vais T'Aimer <3 Mon wafflé! (>^.^)>#)
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[01:28:27] <Ikarus> stupid things stressing me out like how to get a haircut I actually wanty
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[05:08:41] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Mikaela
[05:08:43] *** Limnoria sets mode: +o Mikaela
[05:08:43] *** Server sets mode: +Cgntz 
[05:08:43] *** Server sets mode: +Cgntz 
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[06:31:08] *** libbies is now known as libbies\zzz
[06:44:23] <libbies\zzz> Mikaela: is there a way to rate limit nick changes on freenode
[06:46:20] <benonsoftware> Heh, a few channels have been hit by that.
[06:48:13] *** Joins: jambajuice (~jambajuic@cpe-107-15-189-200.nc.res.rr.com)
[06:48:14] <jambajuice> lol
[06:48:31] <benonsoftware> libbies\zzz: THe IRCd does throttle it, but because they're doing it through services it bypasses that.
[06:48:44] <jambajuice> why the asterisks?
[06:48:54] <oliviafox> Hello jambajuice 
[06:48:57] <jambajuice> hi
[06:49:06] <oliviafox> Jambajuice: you're also in NC?
[06:49:13] <libbies\zzz> benonsoftware: that's what I thought
[06:49:26] <jambajuice> yes
[06:49:32] <jambajuice> oliviafox: I am jiraffe
[06:49:32] <oliviafox> Jambajuice: cool
[06:49:44] <jambajuice> from ##technocracy
[06:49:53] <oliviafox> Jambajuice: OH 
[06:50:10] <oliviafox> jambajuice: long time no chat then. :p
[06:50:35] <jambajuice> yea. why does it say Bi* and Pan*
[06:50:37] <jambajuice> Trans*
[06:50:57] <oliviafox> Because globs 
[06:51:05] <oliviafox> !topic
[06:51:16] <oliviafox> @topic
[06:51:16] <Limnoria> A channel for Aces, Bi*, Gays, Intersex, Lesbians, Pan*, Queers, Trans*, and everyone else as long they are respectful. | Please read our CoC at https://abgilpqt.github.io/ | Our pronouns: https://etherpad.fr/p/pronouns_abgilpqt+
[06:51:22] <jambajuice> ok
[06:52:04] <jambajuice> oliviafox: are you west, central, east... ?
[06:52:05] <jambajuice> nc
[06:52:28] <oliviafox> Jambajuice: im in shelby, so between western and central 
[06:53:00] <jambajuice> oh ok. I am near raleigh kind of
[06:53:08] <libbies\zzz> i'm generally against the * in trans
[06:53:22] <oliviafox> Libbies\zzz: I am as well 
[06:53:24] <oliviafox> But 
[06:53:41] <oliviafox> The other people would be allowed anyway 
[06:53:46] <oliviafox> see +
[06:54:31] <libbies\zzz> http://www.thepulpzine.com/the-trans-asterisk-and-why-we-need-to-stop-using-it/
[06:54:34] <Limnoria> Title: The Trans Asterisk and Why We Need To Stop Using It - The Pulp Zine (at www.thepulpzine.com)
[06:55:10] <libbies\zzz> http://nataliereed84.tumblr.com/post/65412526336/so-lets-talk-about-the-fucking-asterisk
[06:55:11] <Limnoria> Title: A Natalie Reed Tumblr So Let’s Talk About The Fucking Asterisk (at nataliereed84.tumblr.com)
[06:55:17] <oliviafox> It's a bit tricky because the * in trans is usually used to allow comparing transgender people to transvestites
[06:56:21] <oliviafox> Which is gross (literally)
[06:56:51] <oliviafox> But hey 
[06:57:27] *** Parts: jambajuice (~jambajuic@cpe-107-15-189-200.nc.res.rr.com) ("Leaving")
[06:58:05] <oliviafox> Expected 
[07:11:31] *** libbies\zzz is now known as libbies\zzzz
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[07:18:50] *** ChanServ sets mode: +v ChaosWitchRin
[09:30:55] <Mikaela> &lt;libbies\zzz:##abgilpqt+> Mikaela: is there a way to rate limit nick changes on freenode => I am not sure what you mean, others mentioned the IRCd, but you also have /msg nickserv help set enforce
[09:36:04] <Mikaela> something is wrong with my sasl, but certfp works. I must check on pc or was it just connecting to splitted server
[10:02:33] <Mikaela> it doesn't look like I was on splitted server, so SASL is broken. Maybe if I will change my password and then reconnect after seeing if anything interesting happened
[10:04:33] <Mikaela> Pandora is back and talking to people http://www.egscomics.com/egsnp.php?id=287
[10:04:34] <Limnoria> Title: El Goonish Shive - EGS:NP - 2015-04-08 (at www.egscomics.com)
[10:36:51] <Mikaela> I am suspecting that the issue has something to do with ZNC/*sasl and now asked on #freenode as my password is corret there, I checked it
[10:46:31] <Ikarus> morning
[10:47:15] <Ikarus> oliviafox: the tricky bit with that is that transvestites need a safe place too, but the problem is that uh, yeah, neither group tends to have beef with the other, but they are clearly seperate...
[10:48:17] <Mikaela> morning
[10:48:25] <Ikarus> and transvestites are a bit of an odd ball anyway, as they aren't necessarily in the GSRMs (although for many it's a fetish, which would put them in the sexual minorities)
[10:48:54] <Mikaela> I guess we can safely remove the * from there, I don't use it either and everyone should understand what we mean with trans?
[10:49:27] <Ikarus> well, I am against using the * because I am inclusive of people by default, but perhaps
[10:50:07] <Ikarus> but it's an interesting discussion, see also the ban on crossdressing that those SJWs in the UK tried to do
[10:52:44] <Ikarus> but uh, due to inclusivity, I wouldn't have a * for Pan either, you can define your own meaning for it and you know it, so I might just be weird
[10:53:20] <Mikaela> I personally don't like the * and people should understand that when I say trans, I mean probably all not-cis people
[10:53:38] <Mikaela> It's also possible to remove them from topic entirely, but the CoC is more tricky
[10:54:09] *** Mikaela changes topic to 'A channel for all gender, sexual & romantic minorities ♥ | Please read our CoC at https://abgilpqt.github.io/ | Our pronouns: https://etherpad.fr/p/pronouns_abgilpqt+'
[10:54:09] <Mikaela> comments?
[10:54:29] <Mikaela> (comment overusing ♥ and you will be kicked with ♥ :P)
[10:54:29] <Ikarus> Mikaela: I think it's fine that way
[10:54:39] <Mikaela> @topic save
[10:54:39] <Limnoria> Ok.
[10:55:07] <Ikarus> Mikaela: but note, I don't think many transvestites would consider themselves non-cis, although it may vary and some transgender people use it to discover themselves relatively safely, without outright outing themselves 
[10:56:02] <Mikaela> then the trans people simply come out as trans later
[10:56:06] <Ikarus> I mean, do they belong here (cis-transvestites that is), probably not, it's a pretty mainstream fetish, or even just non-sexual hobby, otoh, they shouldn't feel banned from here either
[10:56:26] <Ikarus> (even with all the harm they can end up doing to transgender people indirectly)
[10:56:44] <Mikaela> and transvestites are a little difficult subject as if I have understood correctly, they have sometimes need to be seen as other gender than they were defined as birth, but they always return to that gender
[10:57:22] <Mikaela> we aren't going to start banning cross-dressers or anyone until they start breaking the CoC
[10:57:43] <Ikarus> Mikaela: well, from the literature on it, there are dozens of reasons people crossdress
[10:58:01] <Ikarus> without permanent gender identity issues 
[10:58:18] <Mikaela> alternatively make a lot of people uncomfortable, but we cannot just ban people for fun
[10:58:41] <Mikaela> we have cis hetero people here too as far as I am aware and they haven't caused any trouble
[10:58:50] <Mikaela> or not enough trouble for permanent ban
[11:00:09] <Ikarus> Mikaela: I meant as a part of the soup, not the bowl (hrm, calling it the alphabet soup allows some interesting metaphores)
[11:01:18] <Mikaela> I don't know about the soup or how they think themselves. We can probably agree that they are not trans
[11:01:33] <Mikaela> (even if many people put them under trans umbrella and oh here we have issues again)
[11:01:49] <Ikarus> Mikaela: well, they are not transgender
[11:02:07] <Ikarus> the term transvestite is oddly appropriate (vestite referring to just clothing)
[11:02:24] <Ikarus> but yes, umbrella, bad
[11:03:10] <Mikaela> I also have no idea how they call themselves in English, in Finnish they are "tiitti" (singular) which just comes from the end ("transvestiitti")
[11:03:56] <Ikarus> I am not even going to touch Dutch there, too many bad slurrs 
[11:04:32] <benonsoftware> Family thinks transgender = transvestite.
[11:04:43] <Mikaela> your family is wrong :(
[11:05:16] <benonsoftware> Yeah
[11:05:55] <Ikarus> benonsoftware: transgender is all about internal(ized) gender identity, for a transvestite it is about the thrill, sexuality or other such issues
[11:06:04] <benonsoftware> Yeah
[11:06:39] <Ikarus> if you explain it from those basis I think you can't go wrong :\
[11:07:09] <Ikarus> but the sexual revolution, combined with outdated psychiatry at that time, pretty much fucked this up for transgender people 
[11:07:09] <Mikaela> I don't think benonsoftware can do it yet
[11:08:01] <Mikaela> or maybe if they are braver than me
[11:08:12] <Ikarus> I am kind of glad I won't have to explain it to my parents, but they won't understand that it's me and that it involves such things like HRT 
[11:08:19] <Ikarus> it's kind of freaky 
[11:09:02] <Mikaela> I was safe coming out at psyciatrical hospital so I could just ,,(translate fi en lyödä luuri korvaan) when father started shouting in phone, but my family is sane nowadays
[11:09:04] <Limnoria> Error: Error: HTTP Error 503: Service Unavailable
[11:09:11] <benonsoftware> I'm probably 2-3 (most likely 3) years away from telling my family.
[11:09:17] <benonsoftware> Heh, nice translation. :P
[11:09:20] <Ikarus> benonsoftware: ick 
[11:09:27] <Mikaela> yes, I could give them HTTP Error 503 to their ears
[11:09:56] <Mikaela> what is it when you speak in phone and end the call?
[11:10:03] <benonsoftware> Hang up
[11:10:03] <Mikaela> with the other party still trying to talk
[11:10:11] <Ikarus> hang up on them
[11:10:13] <Mikaela> we have better sying then
[11:10:23] <Mikaela> "slap the phone to ear"
[11:10:23] <Ikarus> I ran into someone who is now out to me and her wife afaik, needs to wait 2 years before their kids grow up and they can move to a safer state in the USA :\
[11:10:30] <Mikaela> or something
[11:10:45] <Mikaela> :(
[11:12:22] <Ikarus> right, I am going to do a quick exercise routine and take a shower, might pop on after that, or I might bury myself in work
[11:13:06] <benonsoftware> I should start exercising again, I used to run a fair bit.
[11:13:18] <Mikaela> see you, I am also leaving for shop soon as mother wants help carrying things and my sister has her laptop waiting in smartpost
[11:14:45] <Mikaela> eercising might do good to me too but I just cannot do anything, because trans and I think it would help if I wasn't alone and having someone might also be a bad thing
[11:14:45] <Mikaela> oh, we are going now, bye
[11:17:09] <benonsoftware> Bye
[11:23:36] *** Quits: ChaosWitchRin (~Rin@cpe-66-65-34-1.nyc.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 250 seconds)
[11:37:25] <Ikarus> Mikaela: I'm using a stepper and a heart beat monitor to keep me motivated, doing HIIT twice a day for a 1 minute long warmup to get my heart rate up, 4 minutes of exercise consisting of 10 seconds relaxed and 20 seconds intense workout cycled on the stepper
[11:37:35] <Ikarus> but it's hardly full body, this is just to help me burn fat
[11:42:41] <Zackio> hi :)
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[12:18:43] *** Quits: oliviafox (~fox@freebsd/lover/oliviafox) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
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[12:21:39] <Mikaela> Ikarus: I don't understand anything
[12:21:39] * Mikaela has now used taxi twice in two days, first last night after doctor it was so late that buses were question marks and today her sisters laptop was too difficult to carry so another taxi was needed
[12:21:56] <Ikarus> Mikaela: I was explaining how silly simple exercise can be
[12:22:19] <Ikarus> and *shudder* I wouldn't dare catch a taxi in Amsterdam
[12:23:17] <Mikaela> hospital to home 20€, shop to home 10€
[12:23:17] <Mikaela> the laptop would have been mpossible to carry with rest of our purhaces and maybe even alone
[12:23:34] <Mikaela> oh, but I still don't understand
[12:24:42] <Ikarus> Mikaela: then perhaps if you really want to do exercise, we should just figure out what works for you
[12:25:07] <Mikaela> 2015-04-08 11:42:30+0300 <@Dysforia> tznews - What's the right time on Mars? - <http://www.timeanddate.com/news/time/mars-time-zone.html>
[12:25:07] <Mikaela> some people should check their calendars
[12:25:10] <Limnoria> Title: Launching New Time Zone on Mars (at www.timeanddate.com)
[12:25:39] <Mikaela> maybe
[12:34:35] *** Quits: sinma (~sinma@2a01:e35:8a26:6480:6a17:29ff:fe51:ff86) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
[13:13:28] *** Joins: Argent (~Argent@87.113.91.170)
[13:18:47] <Mikaela> I wonder if I should try learning Esperanto for fun, it's just being talked about at #jollamobile or was and I think someone here spoke it (sinma?)
[13:18:47] <Mikaela> it would be some kind of use of time
[13:19:13] <Ikarus> Mikaela: pick it up as a hobby if you want
[13:19:17] <Ikarus> a friend of mine speaks it
[13:19:33] <Ikarus> it's kind of cool, but idk 
[13:19:47] <Mikaela> duolingo had it as language option, I think and it's said to be very easy to learn and artificial language
[13:20:14] <Mikaela> but is it biased towards the native languages of people who invented it?
[13:20:21] <Ikarus> yes, badly
[13:20:41] <Ikarus> Interlingua has that less, but still
[13:21:02] <Mikaela> I don't think I have ever heard about Interlingua before today
[13:21:04] <Ikarus> both are just a cross between romance and germanic languages 
[13:21:21] <Ikarus>  with a few different choices, mostly in how they handle grammar
[13:21:28] <Mikaela> maybe retrying trying to learn that Swedish would be more useful
[13:21:54] <Ikarus> Mikaela: but I'd almost just recommend reading English books to you, so your word knowledge gets greater in that, it always feels kind of weird
[13:22:30] <Mikaela> I read English books already, I have read whole The Wheel of Time in English because I was too lazy to go to library
[13:22:44] <Mikaela> or not whole, only to Knife of Dreams that I am currently reading
[13:22:47] <Ikarus> heh, hmmm 
[13:22:58] <Mikaela> I think I have also read Harry Potters in English to The Order of Phoenix
[13:23:04] <Ikarus> I wonder what you should read to expand your word knowledge in English
[13:23:07] <Mikaela> I have read a lot of books in English
[13:23:12] <Ikarus> perhaps something more sci-fiesque 
[13:23:44] <Mikaela> oh, Animorphs was stopped translating into Finnish around book 20, so I read all that were after 20 in English in Seventh grade and it's scifi
[13:24:04] <Mikaela> I have read what the serie with 42 was, because oliviafox
[13:24:14] <Ikarus> Ian M. Banks' Culture universe, given the kind of writer he was perhaps 
[13:24:16] <Mikaela> IT support in another room, I will be away for a little
[13:24:44] <Ikarus> but note, those books contain cheap "transition" so to say, but it's handled well nuanced, but it can still be a TW
[13:25:06] <benonsoftware> I need to read Catch 22 soon.
[13:26:06] <Ikarus> (I liked that part of the books as they handled gender like I wish our society did)
[13:29:03] *** libbies\zzzz is now known as libbies
[13:29:20] <libbies> Mikaela: thanks for switching it to GSRM
[13:30:20] <Ikarus> libbies: I always fear people pointing out that pedofelia is technically part of that, and derailing any discussions that way
[13:36:19] <Mikaela> one mother watching popular TV show from web tv that requires Silverlight on OS X without issues
[13:38:11] <Mikaela> I don't know about those books, but I think I am trying to avoid gender in books, The Wheel of Time just has one character who was restored to life, but in female body and even if everyone uses female pronouns knowing her past, she still uses male magic
[13:39:02] <Ikarus> Mikaela: oh, Ian M. Banks is very very good about it imo, including discussions of identity and such
[13:39:55] <Mikaela> and she doesn't suffer from dysphoria, but I like to play with thought about being deep in evil/darkness protecting from that feeling as they don't feel anything positive either
[13:39:55] <Mikaela> libbies: you're welcome
[13:39:55] <Mikaela> Ikarus: I don't think we need to worry about that as if some pedophile appears here, that is business of staffers and we can agree it being illness
[13:40:06] <benonsoftware> I should start reading again, I used to read 1-2 book every day.
[13:40:50] <Ikarus> Mikaela: hrm, I don't think it's an illness, but unlike other sexual minorities, it may require medical treatment (remember, they don't have to act on it to identify themselves as such)
[13:41:04] <Ikarus> because they cannot express themselves 
[13:41:22] <Ikarus> but it just derails most useful discussions
[13:42:23] <Mikaela> I am lost what to do then, but I don't feel like they are sexual minority
[13:42:23] <Mikaela> and that medical treatment, no idea about females, but for males it's Androcur and possibly more than the 50 mg trans feminine people use
[13:42:40] <Ikarus> medical treatment can also be psychiatric
[13:43:00] <Mikaela> are rapers sexual orientation/minority(/majority)?
[13:43:20] <Ikarus> possibly, but are they allowed to express it, ofcourse not
[13:43:55] <Ikarus> (I don't know of any research that shows that, while there is for pedophiles)
[13:44:43] <Ikarus> the point is that it is relevant in a few important ways, like, those people still deserve the right to live a safe life aslong as they have their urges under control
[13:45:29] <Mikaela> if you were pedophile or raper, what would our CoC say about you?
[13:45:50] <Mikaela> of course everyone deserves safe life, but in space like this...
[13:46:14] <Ikarus> Mikaela: well, I am talking about the use of the term GSRM in general 
[13:46:31] <Ikarus> in this place, we can adjust the exact meaning to fit the people
[13:46:43] <Ikarus> I mean I wouldn't be comfortable, having been abused
[13:46:51] <Ikarus> but I still can't hate them in general
[13:47:17] <libbies> ...
[13:47:18] <libbies> ...
[13:47:19] <libbies> ...
[13:47:22] <libbies> anyway
[13:47:30] <libbies> i think the situation can be dealt with as it comes up
[13:47:53] <libbies> instead of talking about frankly, upsetting, hypotheticals in here
[13:47:53] <Ikarus> yeah, I more meant that the general idea of GSRM is used by haters to derail discussions by pointing that out
[13:47:55] <Mikaela> I think I am thinking both this channel and general and I think it's more fear than hate for me even if I have no experience with it yet
[13:48:11] <Ikarus> hence I am always hesitant about using it
[13:48:47] <libbies> it's unlikely anyone will join this particular channel to talk about that exact point
[13:48:57] <libbies> and if they do, they're likely a troll
[13:49:00] <libbies> and you can ban them anyway :3
[13:49:02] <Ikarus> libbies: likely
[13:49:10] <Ikarus> but the problem is in more public places like a website
[13:49:23] <Mikaela> should something be done to https://github.com/abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io by the way? I think that index.md and about.md might talk about the old topic
[13:49:24] <Limnoria> Title: abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io · GitHub (at github.com)
[13:49:35] <Ikarus> I've actually seen it on reddit's /r/askgsm 
[13:49:35] <libbies> leave the website alone
[13:50:23] <libbies> remove the * from Trans* maybe :P and add a line about how we consider Trans to already be all-inclusive of gender-nonconformity of any kind
[13:50:49] <Mikaela> and should we hide this channel from whois? (mode +p) to avoid labeling people using umode -i what is the logic everywhere at IRCnet?
[13:50:49] <Mikaela> Ok, I wouldn't feel like editing it anyway, but pull requests are always welcome and I think https://github.com/abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io/issues is full anyway
[13:50:51] <Limnoria> Title: Issues · abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io · GitHub (at github.com)
[13:50:57] <Mikaela> hmm, maybe two small changes
[13:51:08] <Ikarus> Mikaela: I prefer +p 
[13:51:21] <Ikarus> libbies: I found it amuzing how many of my non-binary friends did consider trans to apply to them (we hadn't discussed that topic), quite happy 
[13:52:07] *** Mikaela sets mode: +p 
[13:52:58] <Ikarus> otoh, I these days grin when I get on a train and realise "statistically, there are more trans people on this train, just waiting to come out of the woodwork"  
[13:53:17] -Mikaela- This channel does not appear in whois anymore even if the person is in umode -i unless the whoising user is on the channel. /list and alis are unaffected as this is freenode-seven where +p has different functionality than +s other than only /knock
[13:53:29] <Ikarus> which might be a really weird feeling, but it helps me cope with the insanity of being a tiny minority
[13:53:32] <Mikaela> spam, but some people are more likely to notice notice than normal message
[13:53:39] <Ikarus> (trains here are biiiig)
[13:56:37] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io (in asterisk): Mikaela Suomalainen committed about.md & index.md: open * as <romantic|sexual> http://git.io/veibF
[13:56:45] <Mikaela> opinions?
[13:56:47] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io: Status for commit about.md & index.md: open * as <romantic|sexual> by Mikaela Suomalainen: The Travis CI build is in progress https://travis-ci.org/abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io/builds/57626281
[13:56:56] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io: Status for commit about.md & index.md: open * as <romantic|sexual> by Mikaela Suomalainen: The Travis CI build is in progress https://travis-ci.org/abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io/builds/57626281
[13:57:10] <libbies> http://thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/transitioning-while-non-binary/
[13:57:11] <Limnoria> Title: Transitioning While Non-Binary (at thebodyisnotanapology.com)
[13:57:41] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io: Status for commit about.md & index.md: open * as <romantic|sexual> by Mikaela Suomalainen: The Travis CI build passed https://travis-ci.org/abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io/builds/57626281
[13:57:53] <Mikaela> hmm, that doesn't look like it works how I wanted, I must convert it to HTML
[13:58:05] <libbies> Mikaela: i wonder if people will find the channel at all without it being shown in whoises
[13:58:21] <Mikaela> /list or alis will show it without whoises
[13:58:25] <libbies> would mean everyone coming here would probably be invited, since we wouldn't match most searches on alis
[13:58:48] <Mikaela> /msg alis list * -topic gender
[13:59:16] *** Mikaela sets mode: -p 
[13:59:16] -Mikaela- This channel is visible in whois again, if that is problem for you, please /mode yournick +i which freenode does by default.
[14:00:51] <Mikaela> maybe that works
[14:00:56] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io (in asterisk): Mikaela Suomalainen committed about.md & index.md: open * as <romantic|sexual> http://git.io/veiAi
[14:01:06] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io: Status for commit about.md & index.md: open * as <romantic|sexual> by Mikaela Suomalainen: The Travis CI build is in progress https://travis-ci.org/abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io/builds/57626608
[14:01:15] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io: Status for commit about.md & index.md: open * as <romantic|sexual> by Mikaela Suomalainen: The Travis CI build is in progress https://travis-ci.org/abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io/builds/57626608
[14:01:59] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io: Status for commit about.md & index.md: open * as <romantic|sexual> by Mikaela Suomalainen: The Travis CI build passed https://travis-ci.org/abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io/builds/57626608
[14:04:00] * libbies relinks http://thebodyisnotanapology.com/magazine/transitioning-while-non-binary/
[14:04:31] <Ikarus> libbies: mhm
[14:04:54] <Mikaela> libbies: does that have something to do with what I am currently trying to do? The title doesn't look like it
[14:04:59] <Ikarus> libbies: I got hate yesterday because I said I can be trans, identify as female when asked and STILL be non-binary
[14:05:01] <libbies> no
[14:05:09] <libbies> Ikarus: they are wrong, lol
[14:05:29] <Ikarus> libbies: yeah, I had to resort to drawing out a gender spectrum and indicating the range in which I fall
[14:05:36] <Ikarus> and then finding examples and ugh
[14:05:42] <Ikarus> did manage to make my point in the end
[14:05:50] <Ikarus> so yay, more educated people
[14:06:19] *** benonsoftware is now known as clockwork
[14:06:22] <libbies> there are a lot of non-binary trans women in ##transfeminism if you need a place to rant/talk about it :3
[14:06:25] *** clockwork is now known as benonsoftware
[14:07:10] <Ikarus> libbies: nah, I feel like I am at the point on the spectrum where if I didn't know so many agender, absolute non-binary or genderfluid people, I wouldn't have self identified as that even
[14:07:27] <Ikarus> also wtf in that community
[14:07:34] <Ikarus> it's just someone's Twitch chat
[14:07:39] <libbies> i identified as agender for almost ten years before my transition
[14:07:47] <Ikarus> yet, half the channel or more is GSRM 
[14:08:09] <Ikarus> (the caster isn't himself, although he does have aspergers and a interesting perspective on the world
[14:09:34] <Mikaela> just some days ago I had someone saying that they know everything about trans issues and suffer from them etc. saying that because they have AS. they were also cis...
[14:10:06] <Ikarus> huh, I don't even get that one
[14:11:26] <libbies> i just thought of a horrible joke
[14:11:36] <libbies> like really horrible
[14:11:38] <libbies> anyone want to hear it
[14:11:48] <libbies> it's awful and terrible and probably triggering
[14:11:48] <Ikarus> libbies: I can probably handle it, sure
[14:11:56] <libbies> Q: what do you call a non-transitioning person who suffers from severe gender dysphoria?
[14:11:56] <Ikarus> feeling good and random
[14:12:04] <libbies> A: dead
[14:12:28] <Ikarus> libbies: oh, I was more thinking "a monk" 
[14:12:35] <libbies> that's what Mikaela's person was making me think of
[14:12:48] <libbies> if they are really trans, and they're claiming they're still cis ... well, that isn't going to last very long
[14:12:55] <libbies> until they end up killing themselves or transitioning
[14:12:56] <Ikarus> libbies: heh
[14:13:13] <Mikaela> libbies: they have nothing to do with transness
[14:13:16] <Ikarus> libbies: I think even if you are strongly questioning, that cis label isn't going to stick
[14:13:34] <libbies> Mikaela: "suffer from them"?
[14:13:42] * Ikarus is genuinely hoping it works out for a friend
[14:13:50] <libbies> unless you mean they're suffering from our external issues
[14:14:04] <libbies> like, us being trans is negatively affecting them somehow
[14:14:08] <Mikaela> direct quote when this shell cooperates
[14:14:18] <libbies> no quotes please
[14:14:19] <libbies> :D
[14:14:28] <libbies> logs are meant to be private
[14:15:07] <Mikaela> depending on whether we follow Finnish laws or not, I have right to publish, but I am not going to tell you the name
[14:15:33] <Ikarus> libbies: I always ask permission
[14:15:57] <Ikarus> sometimes I just need to retell something here, or in some other loving place, to cope 
[14:17:11] <Mikaela> > believe me, even though i'm not trans i did have similar experiences
[14:17:11] <Mikaela> <Mikaela> mind opening that?
[14:17:11] <Mikaela> > i have aspergers
[14:17:11] <Mikaela> > visited several private schools in the past
[14:17:11] <Mikaela> > after failing on public ones
[14:17:11] <Mikaela> > failing = they kicked me out
[14:17:23] <Mikaela> I honestly cannot compare autism and transness
[14:18:22] <Ikarus> idk, perhaps if you feel trans without the damned constant dysphoria (I mean I know someone who fits that line) 
[14:19:07] <Ikarus> but the dysphoria is just nope, if you can find anything like it, I fear for you
[14:19:17] <Mikaela> this person is cis
[14:19:36] <Mikaela> and my paste is excuse why they were on trans channel
[14:19:46] <Ikarus> Mikaela: I mean comparing autism and non-dysphoric transgender, but yes, that is weird 
[14:20:13] <Ikarus> My bet is on "means well chaser" due to his autism
[14:20:38] <Mikaela> autism and trans is possible and there are researches on people on autism spectrum being more likely part of GRSM, but this case had nothing to do with any four
[14:20:44] <Mikaela> or minority
[14:21:25] <Ikarus> Mikaela: I am starting to suspect that people on the autism spectrum are more likely to even consider it a possibility and likely to explore
[14:22:05] <Mikaela> trans women killed in pakistan, too triggering for me to read http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/gunmen-attack-group-transgender-women-pakistan-killing-two070415
[14:22:05] <Mikaela> might be possible, but I am very surprised if this case comes out as trans
[14:22:11] <Limnoria> Title: Gunmen attack group of transgender women in Pakistan killing two | Gay Star News (at www.gaystarnews.com)
[14:22:23] <Ikarus> Mikaela: who knows 
[14:22:24] <libbies> i tend to think everyone who visits a trans channel is trans even if they might not realize it themselves yet :P
[14:22:57] <Mikaela> that is very positive thinking thinking how much people come to trans channels after sex
[14:25:56] <libbies> i've never seen that personally
[14:26:06] <Mikaela> lucky
[14:26:10] <libbies> and i've run various trans support channels
[14:26:46] <Mikaela> maybe it's just that I am mostly on GRSM channels
[14:28:45] <benonsoftware> It looks like I've been in this channel for nearly 10 months now.
[14:29:33] <Mikaela> it feels like you were here since the beginning, but at first there were just me and pinkieval and Limnoria and more people joined later
[14:30:08] <benonsoftware> 2014-06-26 10:10:00     -->     benonsoftware (benny@ubuntu/member/benonsoftware) has joined ##abgilpqt+
[14:30:16] <benonsoftware> Looks like the first time I ever joined
[14:30:45] <Mikaela> another article that I should probably have left unread http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/04/acceptable-trans-narratives/
[14:30:47] <Limnoria> Title: These 10 ‘Acceptable’ Trans Narratives Are Actually Holding Us Back — Everyday Feminism (at everydayfeminism.com)
[14:31:03] <benonsoftware> 12 months ago feels like it was forever.
[14:33:12] <benonsoftware> I remember that Mikaela invited me here after I joined her channel.
[14:34:07] <Mikaela> I think I just mentioned that this channel also exist and I feel bad about even mentioning this channel as it feels like fake self advertising
[14:36:46] <Mikaela> oh and I might reply slowly at the moment, because we are unboxing my sisters laptop with her
[14:41:20] <Zackio> yay i'll be visiting someone in town for the first time in ages :)
[14:43:28] <Zackio> The game was created by a designer/illustrator named Dick Poelen, and it’s available for Windows, OSX and Lunix.
[14:43:30] <Zackio> not sure if this is serious
[14:43:32] <Zackio> "Lunix"
[14:44:48] <Zackio> http://ludumdare.com/compo/minild-58/?action=preview&uid=11663
[14:44:51] <Limnoria> Title: MiniLD #58 | Ludum Dare (at ludumdare.com)
[14:47:36] <Mikaela> I wonder if I will ever visit anyone or anyone will visit me
[14:58:51] <benonsoftware> It's nearly been a year since I first spoke to someone about gender.
[15:01:07] <Zackio> also, benonsoftware 
[15:01:17] <Mikaela> what do people here think about new UEFI PCs requiring you to accept Microsoft's ToS before you can get to Windows where you can get to UEFI settings where you can choose to install a different OS?
[15:01:17] <Zackio> do you recall something called "TMEWiki" from a year or so ago?
[15:01:42] <Zackio> and have you made a minecraft mod before? i might be confusing you with someone else
[15:02:26] <benonsoftware> Zackio: TMEWiki might ring a bell, not really sure. But I know I haven't made a minecraft mod before, I've never played it. :P
[15:02:42] <Zackio> oh, yeah, i'm confusing you with someone else with "Ben" in there nick
[15:02:44] <Mikaela> tmewiki rings a bell to me too
[15:02:49] <Mikaela> MrC?
[15:02:50] <Zackio> Mikaela: it was my old wiki
[15:02:56] <Zackio> oooh, might have been
[15:03:16] <Zackio> anyway, i always meant to ask benonsoftware if you were that person
[15:03:18] <Zackio> apparently not :P
[15:03:22] <benonsoftware> Heh yeah :P
[15:03:37] <Zackio> they made a mod for changing crafting recipes in minecraft, i hosted a wiki page for him
[15:03:43] <Zackio> ah well
[15:04:04] <Zackio> :O
[15:04:08] <Zackio> benonsoftware: you used to use openSUSE?
[15:04:13] <benonsoftware> ah :P
[15:04:16] <benonsoftware> Yeah*
[15:04:23] <Zackio> (sry i couldn't resist googling your username... i was curious xD)
[15:04:28] <Zackio> i see.. i also use it :)
[15:04:34] <benonsoftware> Haha, I did that about 20 minutes ago. :P
[15:04:43] <Zackio> heh
[15:05:51] <benonsoftware> Only things you'll find if you Google my name are things that like, and my basketball stats.
[15:06:27] <Zackio> heh
[15:07:30] <Zackio> huh
[15:07:32] <Zackio> https://github.com/zpipe07
[15:07:33] <Limnoria> Title: zpipe07 (Zack Piper) · GitHub (at github.com)
[15:07:36] <Zackio> another Zack Piper on GitHub! :D
[15:08:10] *** libbies is now known as yeoz
[15:08:20] *** yeoz is now known as libbies
[15:10:20] <Zackio> i find it really weird how i used to have the username zackp30 (i have since changed it) on minecraft... and somebody else actually has the username zackp31
[15:10:23] <Zackio> and uses it on other things as well
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[15:13:44] *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Ed1Ross
[15:16:48] <Mikaela> aargh
[15:16:48] <Mikaela> "THE OPERATING SYSTEM HAS NOTICED CHANGE IN SECURE BOOT SETTING!!!! PLEASE ENTER THE PASSCODE BELOW AND PRESS ENTER TO CONFIRM THIS!!!!!"
[15:17:52] <Mikaela> I hope it's not going to give that every boot unless I enable secure boot again. Even if this is my sisters laptop, I will probably have to help her sometime and if Windows breaks itself, I want to keep ability to boot other OS than it
[15:18:29] *** Quits: Argent (~Argent@87.113.91.170) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[15:33:52] <Mikaela> They have moved http://update.microsoft.com/microsoftupdate to computer settings and I am lost, because it was there always, but maybe this place makes more sense :(
[15:37:32] <Mikaela> http://ninite.com/ is also difficult as Mikaela clicks almost everything while Tiina takes only small subset
[15:37:34] <Limnoria> Title: Ninite - Install or Update Multiple Apps at Once (at ninite.com)
[15:51:21] <Mikaela> and back to random links http://www.xojane.com/it-happened-to-me/it-happened-to-me-i-came-out-as-bisexual-and-now-cant-date-anyone-gay-or-straight
[15:55:12] *** Joins: Argent (~Argent@87.112.1.155)
[15:57:00] <libbies> yay for bi-erasure :(
[15:58:33] <Mikaela> I am lost on why they cannot date straight or gay people, at least that their words were nice
[15:59:50] <Mikaela> "As a cis-gendered bisexual man I will never know what it’s like to be straight, gay, transsexual, pansexual, or asexual. But I accept you, I love you, and I do my best to understand what it’s like to be you. "
[15:59:50] <Mikaela> (here the person has somehow became cis gender, so they were trans earlier or forget that it's not verb and transsexual is put as sexual orientation or so it looks to me)
[16:00:05] <Mikaela> but that isn't the point
[16:02:39] <libbies> Mikaela: people will question whether you're actually bi, if being bi is just a phase.
[16:03:09] <Mikaela> why?
[16:03:55] <libbies> because biphobia?
[16:04:33] <Mikaela> :(
[16:22:14] <Mikaela> I don't think I would have any issue being in relationship with bi person, but with poly there would be issue because of past experience.
[16:22:14] <Mikaela> And I am being confused as someone said to be publicly poly at FB and there is also one weird discussion going on that has nothing to do with anything, but it still concerns me and I am wondering if I should say something.
[16:28:17] <Ikarus> ick, I have a meeting tomorrow that I may have to postpone, I am feeling horrible today to the point that I am having trouble going outside for groceries
[16:28:40] <Mikaela> :(
[16:30:49] <Ikarus> hoping it improves :)
[16:35:56] *** Quits: KittenGNU (~KittenGNU@unaffiliated/kittengnu) (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
[16:36:52] <Mikaela> http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/01/being-called-cis-is-not-oppressive/ - I am probably lucky for never meeting anyone who takes cis as offensive
[16:36:53] <Limnoria> Title: 6 Reasons Why Being Called a Cis Person Is Not Oppressive — Everyday Feminism (at everydayfeminism.com)
[16:46:41] <Zackio> wat
[16:46:45] <Zackio> people think "cis" is offensive?
[16:46:47] <Zackio> :(
[16:47:22] <Mikaela> yes and there are some examples in the point 6
[16:48:39] <Zackio> i don't even want to read :<
[16:50:01] <Mikaela> it's not so bad
[16:50:50] <Mikaela> and I am wondering does anyone ever read what I write to Facebook and more if I feel the thing as important or should I write that to my blog which I know to have only one reader and I am also going to say this at Facebook
[16:55:12] *** Joins: Mayank (~Mayank@117.222.43.223)
[17:00:16] *** Parts: Mayank (~Mayank@117.222.43.223) ("Leaving")
[17:02:00] <Zackio> o.o
[17:03:22] <Ikarus> \o/ for understanding people at uni, that when I say I am having a panic attack, I might need to miss an appointment if it's 1:1
[17:19:18] *** Joins: KittenGNU (~KittenGNU@unaffiliated/kittengnu)
[17:19:18] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o KittenGNU
[17:45:36] <Mikaela> Zackio: I don't understand where that o.o was to and I don't understand Ikarus either, too difficult words
[17:46:22] <Zackio> ──  Mayank (~Mayank@117.222.43.223) has joined ##abgilpqt+
[17:46:28] <Zackio> ──  Mayank (~Mayank@117.222.43.223) has left ##abgilpqt+ ("Leaving")
[17:48:10] <Mikaela> no idea who that is and I am unable to see those arrow heads assuming they are arrow heads for some reason
[17:50:57] <Zackio> they are :P
[17:56:52] <Mikaela> https://www.facebook.com/mikaelahmsuomalainen/posts/808645382563610 got comments
[17:56:53] <Limnoria> Title: Commentaires (at www.facebook.com)
[18:38:13] <benonsoftware> Bleh, I'm still up.
[18:38:41] <Mikaela> :(
[18:39:44] <Zackio> :<
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[19:22:57] *** Quits: FreeFull (~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover) ()
[19:39:41] *** Quits: Ed1Ross (~Thunderbi@3e6b379a.rev.stofanet.dk) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[19:42:29] <oliviafox> I much prefer that topic
[19:42:33] *** Joins: zapperbs (~zapperbs@117.216.145.141)
[19:43:38] <Mikaela> that as in what, we have talked about too many things and I am getting too tired to understand anything once again
[19:44:02] *** Quits: zapperbs (~zapperbs@117.216.145.141) (Client Quit)
[19:44:38] <oliviafox> Mikaela: the listing out all of the groups then saying "and everyone else" felt problematic to me.
[19:45:25] <Mikaela> oh, /topics, do you mean you prefer this or the previous? Sorry, I am just stupid
[19:45:54] <oliviafox> Mikaela: This current topic is far better
[19:46:14] <Mikaela> I see
[20:34:43] <Mikaela> today I learned wine ships with wineconsole :O
[20:35:01] <libbies> of course the current topic is better
[20:35:46] <Zackio> where's me <
[20:35:48] <Zackio> *:<
[20:37:57] <Mikaela> /topic A channel for all gender, sexual & romantic minorities & Zackio ♥ | Please read our CoC at https://abgilpqt.github.io/ | Our pronouns: https://etherpad.fr/p/pronouns_abgilpqt+ 
[20:37:57] <Mikaela> don't steal the heart all for yourself
[20:37:57] <Mikaela> no, seriously, maybe there should be something more there, questioning but would it be misunderstood or curious
[20:37:57] * Mikaela delegates wondering to KittenGNU oliviafox and pinkieval + people who are on the channel and disappears to sauna...
[20:38:01] <Limnoria> Title: ##abgilpqt+ @ freenode (at abgilpqt.github.io)
[20:38:16] <Zackio> hahaha
[20:38:29] <Zackio> i would like that :33
[20:43:33] <KittenGNU> ?
[20:44:32] <oliviafox> sure we can explicitly add questioning
[21:03:06] *** Quits: Argent (~Argent@87.112.1.155) (Quit: Leaving)
[21:43:36] *** Joins: blendify_ (~blendify@c-73-213-10-10.hsd1.md.comcast.net)
[21:43:47] <blendify_> hey
[21:46:52] <libbies> hey blendy
[21:46:55] <libbies> what's up
[21:47:36] <blendify_> so ready to get wet
[21:47:48] <libbies> wet?
[21:47:58] <libbies> oliviafox: ping
[21:48:21] <blendify_> yea wet
[21:48:29] <oliviafox> uh
[21:49:10] * Mikaela is back from sauna and wondering why the topic didn't change even if it received sure (4 minutes ago)
[21:49:22] <libbies> what do you mean by wet
[21:49:28] <oliviafox> blendify_: This channel is not the place for NSFW content, please read our CoC. If you mean it another way (which i highly doubt) 
[21:49:30] <Mikaela> oh and hi
[21:49:31] <oliviafox> please like, explain
[21:50:04] <blendify_> im a swimmer and so ready to go swimming tonight
[21:50:16] *** oliviafox changes topic to 'A channel for all gender, sexual & romantic minorities, questioning people welcome! ♥ | Please read our CoC at https://abgilpqt.github.io/ | Our pronouns: https://etherpad.fr/p/pronouns_abgilpqt+'
[21:50:37] <libbies> blendify_: competitive swimmer?
[21:50:42] <blendify_> yes
[21:50:56] <oliviafox> please be mindful of multiple meanings.
[21:51:31] <blendify_> point taken sorry
[21:51:32] <Mikaela> my hair is also wet, it twould be insane to go to sauna without also using shower
[21:51:40] <Zackio> i'm not questioning either...
[21:51:50] <Mikaela> other places dry better
[21:52:06] <libbies> so are cishet people welcome here? :P
[21:52:14] <Zackio> libbies: was thinking the same.
[21:52:17] <libbies> I'd prefer they be excluded XD
[21:52:19] <Mikaela> yes
[21:52:21] <Zackio> ...
[21:52:22] <oliviafox> sure, so long as they are mindful.
[21:52:25] <Zackio> oh ok
[21:52:31] <Mikaela> +1 oliviafox 
[21:52:36] <oliviafox> I'm not going to add it directly into the topic
[21:52:48] <libbies> oliviafox: maybe"allies"?
[21:52:52] <oliviafox> libbies: nope.
[21:52:52] <Zackio> sigh
[21:52:56] <libbies> kk
[21:53:08] <libbies> allies can go fuck themselves anyway
[21:53:10] <Mikaela> I prefer to not have them in topic even in form allies
[21:53:15] <libbies> <.<;;;
[21:53:20] <oliviafox> not being added into the topic, This isn't a space for allies. You're allowed to be here, but you must be mindful. 
[21:53:27] * libbies might be a bit angsty
[21:53:36] <oliviafox> This is a queer space
[21:53:39] <libbies> like super angsty
[21:53:51] <Zackio> libbies: i can tell, because im mildly offended.
[21:54:06] <Mikaela> queer again excludes me or feel so
[21:55:46] <Mikaela> ok, I ate that ice cream so I am able to type longer lnes and faster
[21:56:13] <oliviafox> My point is that this is not a space for cishet people and allies. You're allowed to be here but you're a guest. 
[21:56:24] <libbies> Mikaela: do you feel "queer" is exclusive?
[21:56:28] <Mikaela> Zackio: I am unsure on your feelings or what you are wondering, so I cannot repply directly
[21:56:38] <Zackio> (185217)       +libbies │ I'd prefer they be excluded XD
[21:56:40] <Zackio> is what pissed me off
[21:56:45] <Zackio> (185308)       +libbies │ allies can go fuck themselves anyway
[21:56:48] <Zackio> also this.
[21:57:11] <Mikaela> libbies: I feel that I am not queer and that I couldn't even be called as queer as I hate being trans or ace which would be the things to make me queer
[21:57:22] <oliviafox> Zackio: if you had felt the shit we've been given you probably would be in the same way
[21:57:33] <libbies> Mikaela: i understand
[21:57:39] *** Quits: blendify_ (~blendify@c-73-213-10-10.hsd1.md.comcast.net) (Quit: Leaving)
[21:57:39] <Zackio> so they makes it okay to take a shit on *all* of us?
[21:57:41] <Zackio> fine
[21:57:44] <Zackio> *that
[21:57:46] <Zackio> S/they/that/
[21:57:48] <Mikaela> Zackio: traditionally allies have possibly meant well, but not showed it very well
[21:58:07] <oliviafox> Zackio: pretty much, the point is you're a guest here. This is not a space for you
[21:58:23] <Mikaela> Zackio: there is also issues of allies often taking A from the ##abgilpqt+ as meaning Ally instead of Asexual making us more forgotten and I think libbies has said being ace here
[21:58:23] <Zackio> ...
[21:58:24] <oliviafox> you're going to see people with a lot of anger related to stuff they have experienced
[21:58:32] <Zackio> that doesn't sound very welcoming
[21:58:34] <Zackio> bye
[21:58:39] <oliviafox> fine by me.
[21:58:41] *** Parts: Zackio (Matrixiumn@unaffiliated/matrixiumn) ("WeeChat 1.2-dev")
[21:59:23] <oliviafox> Anyone else think that its okay for allies and cishet people to take over our conversations and space, and make us mindful of "their" problems 
[21:59:27] <oliviafox> er
[21:59:31] <oliviafox> their "problems"
[21:59:34] *** Joins: Guest27363 (uid11062@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eikgblsertajjvjt)
[21:59:49] <Mikaela> This feels depressing, but it's not my fault so there is no reason for me to think suicide as my life is otherwise taking neutral break
[22:00:03] <Mikaela> I think you are making too hard separating
[22:00:21] <oliviafox> No.
[22:01:22] <oliviafox> my issues with cis people should not have to take a back seat to people's feelings in this channel. it makes this space useless for what it exists for
[22:01:28] *** Joins: Euryale (~Euryale@unaffiliated/euryale)
[22:01:29] <oliviafox> this is not a space for them
[22:01:37] <Euryale> hi everyone
[22:01:42] <oliviafox> hey Euryale 
[22:02:05] <oliviafox> cishet "allies" especially are terrible about saying
[22:02:11] <oliviafox> "but you're offending /me/"
[22:02:20] <oliviafox> thats not fair on any of us
[22:02:41] <libbies> Euryale: hey
[22:02:53] <libbies> Euryale: what brings you here:P
[22:03:50] *** Joins: FreeFull (~freefull@defocus/sausage-lover)
[22:03:50] *** ChanServ sets mode: +v FreeFull
[22:05:14] <Mikaela> you forget that there are cis gays, lesbians, bi, pan, aces and others
[22:05:14] <Mikaela> this used to be channel for everyone and should still be
[22:05:14] <Mikaela> yes, cishet people getting upset is not fair on any of us, but how can they learn if we don't say anything?
[22:05:28] <oliviafox> Mikaela: as is aid
[22:05:31] <oliviafox> they are guests
[22:05:50] <oliviafox> and i typed cishet but i lagged
[22:06:12] <Euryale> libbies: oh, I reset all my autojoins but olivia mentioned being in here so I decided to poke my head back in and see what's up
[22:06:21] <libbies> ah
[22:06:40] <Mikaela> I feel that you are being hard and there is also the issue of voicing regulars, should we only reserve voice to GSRM which again makes them more visible from the majority?
[22:07:13] <oliviafox> Regulars should still be allowed to be voiced no matter if they are cishet or not. that does not change that
[22:07:36] <oliviafox> This is not a space for cishet people's feelings to be more important than our own
[22:07:55] <Guest27363> nobody. ever. said. more. important.
[22:08:09] <Mikaela> but everyones feelings are important and without communicating how can people learn from each other?
[22:08:10] <Guest27363> i never hurt you, oliviafox 
[22:08:17] <oliviafox> Guest27363: oh i guess you're zackio. 
[22:08:24] <Guest27363> what did i even do
[22:08:25] <oliviafox> So you could see what I'm saying
[22:08:29] <Guest27363> to deserve
[22:08:30] <Guest27363> this at all
[22:08:31] <Guest27363> wtf
[22:08:33] *** Mikaela sets mode: +b Guest*!*@*
[22:08:37] <oliviafox> what you are doing now.
[22:08:42] *** Parts: Guest27363 (uid11062@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eikgblsertajjvjt) (requested by Mikaela (Please return with your own name.))
[22:08:55] <Mikaela> not Zackio as channel list doesn't match
[22:09:29] <Mikaela> even if it was Zackio, they are not able to communicate clearly at the moment.
[22:10:03] <libbies> um
[22:10:14] <libbies> I guess I should apologize for starting this mess
[22:10:35] <libbies> I said some kinda hurtful things about allies and I regret them now
[22:10:54] <Euryale> I'm sorry, but when you live in a culture where the majority's 'feelings' are always the important onces, at the expense of everyone else and the minority group decides they want to have a space of their own in order to grow as a community and take shelter then the majority's feelings /do not fucking matter there/
[22:11:05] <oliviafox> that was zacio
[22:11:17] <oliviafox> and is now being a peice of shit on my IRC network
[22:11:29] <Euryale> libbies: don't ever feel sorry for insulting allies. Allies come into our spaces and act entitled far too often to our time. They need to be slapped back and put in their place once in a while.
[22:11:36] <Mikaela> we were always channel for everyone
[22:11:57] <Euryale> yeah... but it's a /queer channel/
[22:12:11] * Euryale backs away from the discussion somewhat, owing that she's not a regular
[22:12:59] <Mikaela> 2015-04-08 21:54:06+0300 <@Mikaela> queer again excludes me or feel so
[22:12:59] <Mikaela> 2015-04-08 21:57:11+0300 <@Mikaela> libbies: I feel that I am not queer and that I couldn't even be called as queer as I hate being trans or ace which would be the things to make me queer
[22:14:56] <Euryale> whether you like it or not, the fact that you are trans and ace means you're trans and ace which means you're /not cishet/
[22:15:39] <Mikaela> I don't want to be either and I wish I was cishet, so I am not queer
[22:17:27] <Euryale> ... then why are you an op in a queer channel?
[22:17:47] <Mikaela> because I am co-founder of channel for everyone which was decided to be queer channel less than hour ago
[22:18:14] * Euryale looks at the alphabet soup channel name and raises an eyebrow
[22:18:51] <Mikaela> please consider taking a look at the topic, mainly first link and https://abgilpqt.github.io/about/
[22:18:54] <Limnoria> Title: About (at abgilpqt.github.io)
[22:19:25] <Mikaela> hmm, no, about doesn't say anything about everyone, the index does
[22:20:19] *** Joins: cirvinfox (~addie@shodan.foxiepa.ws)
[22:21:14] <Euryale> "A channel for all gender, sexual & romantic minorities"
[22:21:28] <Euryale> ^ you mean, that?
[22:21:34] <libbies> Euryale: the topic was changed today
[22:21:38] <Mikaela> that is also from today
[22:21:44] <libbies> it was more alphabet soup previously
[22:22:05] *** Limnoria changes topic to 'A channel for Aces, Bi*, Gays, Intersex, Lesbians, Pan*, Queers, Trans*, and everyone else as long they are respectful. | Please read our CoC at https://abgilpqt.github.io/ | Our pronouns: https://etherpad.fr/p/pronouns_abgilpqt+'
[22:22:11] <libbies> Mikaela: revision history from before today's changes?
[22:22:23] * Euryale squirms at the 'Trans*' in the about link :1
[22:22:25] <libbies> I assume that topic is
[22:22:38] <Mikaela> no idea if such is stored anywhere, ask pinkieval to take a look at libbies 
[22:22:44] <Mikaela> s/libbies/Limnoria/
[22:22:46] <Limnoria> What Mikaela meant to say was: no idea if such is stored anywhere, ask pinkieval to take a look at Limnoria
[22:22:51] <libbies> I complained about the asterisk already
[22:23:23] <Euryale> http://euryale-dreams.tumblr.com/post/115247785115/stop-using-trans
[22:23:25] <Limnoria> Title: Euryale's Dreams — Stop Using ‘Trans*’ (at euryale-dreams.tumblr.com)
[22:23:29] <Euryale> oh, good
[22:24:47] <oliviafox> why did you change it Mikaela 
[22:25:03] <libbies> she was just doing a revert I guess
[22:25:14] <libbies> Mikaela: can you change it back
[22:25:25] <Mikaela> telling Limnoria to ,,(help topic undo) was the only thing I was able to do safely
[22:25:28] <Limnoria> (topic undo [<channel>]) -- Restores the topic to the one previous to the last topic command that set it. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent in the channel itself. 
[22:25:39] <oliviafox> zackio is complaining about discrimination to me
[22:25:42] <oliviafox> im laughing
[22:25:45] <oliviafox> i really am
[22:26:15] <Mikaela> what I wish to do is fix the channel as I cannot fix anything else
[22:26:15] <Mikaela> pinkieval: are you here, can I PM you?
[22:26:33] <libbies> mmm
[22:26:47] *** oliviafox changes topic to 'A channel for Aces, Bi*, Gays, Intersex, Lesbians, Pan*, Queers, Trans, and everyone else as long they are respectful. | Please read our CoC at https://abgilpqt.github.io/ | Our pronouns: https://etherpad.fr/p/pronouns_abgilpqt+'
[22:26:54] <Euryale> yeah... do not like the trans asterisk...
[22:26:59] <libbies> sometimes you can't just *fix* something
[22:27:20] <libbies> and I think the new topic was better :/
[22:27:23] <Euryale> as a non-binary person that asterisk explicitly attacks my right to belong in trans space
[22:27:27] <Euryale> me too
[22:27:31] <libbies> even if it still needed adjustment
[22:28:11] <pinkieval> Mikaela | no idea if such is stored anywhere -> in logs?
[22:28:25] <Mikaela> pinkieval: PM immediately?
[22:28:33] <pinkieval> yes
[22:35:07] *** Joins: Zackio2 (uid11062@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eikgblsertajjvjt)
[22:35:19] *** Parts: Zackio2 (uid11062@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-eikgblsertajjvjt) ()
[22:37:41] *** Joins: sinma (~sinma@2a01:e35:8a26:6480:6a17:29ff:fe51:ff86)
[22:37:41] *** ChanServ sets mode: +v sinma
[22:38:20] <libbies> it's not like zackio is even banned here :/
[22:40:59] *** Parts: cirvinfox (~addie@shodan.foxiepa.ws) ()
[22:45:28] <oliviafox> =/query zackio
[22:48:20] *** Joins: xnr (xnrand@unaffiliated/xy)
[22:49:38] <xnr> damn, it's been almost a year since i've been here 
[22:50:01] <Mikaela> ten minutes pinkieval 
[22:50:19] <Mikaela> xnr: now is not the best possible time to be on the channel, but as you wish
[22:50:35] <xnr> Mikaela: do you want me to leave or..?
[22:51:02] <Mikaela> no, I wish to warn you, that is your choice
[22:51:02] <Mikaela> what happens if pinkieval doesn't say a word doesn't touch you
[22:51:31] <xnr> i'm not even gonna ask
[22:52:37] <libbies> xnr: we were arguing about stuff
[22:52:46] <libbies> things have calmed down
[22:52:50] <Mikaela> the worst breakage/drama of this channel in history of this channel
[22:52:51] <libbies> enjoy your stay!
[22:53:00] <Mikaela> no, things have not calmed down
[22:53:23] <Mikaela> it's short quiet before the storm begins or I begin
[22:53:25] <libbies> is it possible to let things calm down?
[22:53:41] <Mikaela> no, but I can decrease the time I gave to pinkieval 
[22:53:48] <libbies> not everything needs to be a crisis or catastrophe
[22:54:06] <libbies> sometimes it's okay to let things be
[22:54:08] <xnr> sigh... the reason i left about 11 months ago was frequent drama... 
[22:54:23] <Mikaela> you are right about that, but when this channel fights against why it was made, there is reason
[22:54:33] <Mikaela> things have calmed down since then until now
[22:55:10] *** Joins: galex-713 (~user@89-92-167-134.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr)
[22:55:16] <oliviafox> I'm seriously not okay with how this channel is being handled right now. 
[22:55:31] *** Joins: Zackio (Matrixiumn@unaffiliated/matrixiumn)
[22:55:31] *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Zackio
[22:55:37] <Mikaela> same here, but five minutes unless pinkieval appears
[22:55:37] <Zackio> >_>
[22:55:40] * Zackio goes to corner
[22:55:44] * Zackio sits
[22:55:48] <Zackio> :<
[22:55:52] <Zackio> i'm sorry everyone
[22:55:52] <xnr> not to my corner please, Zackio :D
[22:55:53] <oliviafox> Zackio: welcome back
[22:55:59] <Zackio> wait what hi xnr
[22:56:01] <Mikaela> four
[22:56:09] <Zackio> oliviafox: thanks :)
[22:56:38] * Zackio hugs everyone
[22:56:53] * Zackio hugs libbies and says sorry for being like "omg opinions not alloed"
[22:57:01] <Mikaela> three
[22:57:09] <oliviafox> Mikaela: can you stop. 
[22:57:12] <Zackio> uh a countdown is not good
[22:57:14] * libbies hugs Zackio
[22:57:17] <Zackio> wait
[22:57:20] <Zackio> Mikaela: no.
[22:57:20] <libbies> Mikaela: stop
[22:57:22] <Mikaela> depends
[22:57:31] <oliviafox> you're not being conducive to making this environment a safe space in doing so
[22:57:32] <xnr> how does the saying go, Zackio, "there are two kinds of opinions, mine and WRONG" ;)
[22:57:41] <Zackio> xnr: hahahah
[22:58:01] <Mikaela> two
[22:58:13] <Zackio> Mikaela: ???
[22:58:24] <Mikaela> pinkieval: it's starting to be the last times you can arrive and stop the worst breakage
[22:58:36] <libbies> Mikaela: stop
[22:58:38] <libbies> just stop
[22:58:41] <libbies> everything is okay
[22:59:01] <Mikaela> one
[22:59:12] <libbies> it's okay to let things be okay
[22:59:22] <Mikaela> I would say that I will regret doing this, but I always regret everything anyway and this is the only thing I can do
[22:59:34] <libbies> don't do it
[22:59:37] <libbies> just stop
[22:59:50] <libbies> there is no reason to escalate
[23:00:01] <Mikaela> ok, now
[23:00:04] <Mikaela> pinkieval: too late
[23:00:12] <Zackio> what
[23:00:12] <Zackio> what's happening
[23:00:21] -ChanServ- Mikaela set flags -AFORVefiorstv on ProgVal
[23:00:21] *** ChanServ sets mode: -ovo Limnoria Limnoria pinkieval
[23:00:22] -ChanServ- Mikaela set flags -AORVefiorstv on foxiepaws
[23:00:22] *** ChanServ sets mode: -oo horo oliviafox
[23:00:23] -ChanServ- Mikaela set flags -AORVefiorstv on KittenGNU
[23:00:23] *** ChanServ sets mode: -o KittenGNU
[23:00:37] <Zackio> wat.
[23:00:43] *** Parts: oliviafox (~fox@freebsd/lover/oliviafox) ("Bitch.")
[23:00:50] <Zackio> i feel this is my fault
[23:00:57] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io: Status for commit about: prepare for what is going to happen by Mikaela Suomalainen: The Travis CI build is in progress https://travis-ci.org/abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io/builds/57700769
[23:01:04] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io (in master): Mikaela Suomalainen committed index: A channel for everyone http://git.io/veDUv
[23:01:05] <libbies> Zackio: not your fault
[23:01:11] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io (in master): Mikaela Suomalainen committed _config.yml: update tagline http://git.io/veDUU
[23:01:13] *** Mikaela changes topic to 'A channel for everyone <https://abgilpqt.github.io/>'
[23:01:19] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io (in master): Mikaela Suomalainen committed about: prepare for what is going to happen http://git.io/veDUt
[23:01:23] <Zackio> it was, wasn't it.
[23:01:33] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io: Status for commit about: prepare for what is going to happen by Mikaela Suomalainen: The Travis CI build is in progress https://travis-ci.org/abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io/builds/57700769
[23:01:39] <Zackio> Mikaela: 
[23:02:19] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io: Status for commit about: prepare for what is going to happen by Mikaela Suomalainen: The Travis CI build passed https://travis-ci.org/abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io/builds/57700769
[23:02:38] <Zackio> Mikaela: i take back what i've said
[23:02:49] *** Mikaela changes topic to 'A channel for everyone <https://abgilpqt.github.io/> | Previous ops are requested to tell if they are willing to be ops on channel for everyone.'
[23:02:49] -ChanServ- Mikaela set flags +AVi on foxiepaws
[23:02:49] *** ChanServ sets mode: +v horo
[23:02:50] -ChanServ- Mikaela set flags +AVi on KittenGNU
[23:02:50] *** ChanServ sets mode: +v KittenGNU
[23:02:51] -ChanServ- Mikaela set flags +AFORVefiorstv on ProgVal
[23:02:51] *** ChanServ sets mode: +oo Limnoria pinkieval
[23:03:36] *** Mikaela changes topic to 'A channel for everyone <https://abgilpqt.github.io/> | Previous ops are requested to tell if they are willing to be ops on channel for everyone. | While founders are sleeping and if there are no ops, please do read the website and ask staffers on #freenode. | Temporary +sp'
[23:03:36] *** Mikaela sets mode: +sp 
[23:03:54] <libbies> Zackio: I'm sorry
[23:04:04] <libbies> Zackio: this feels much my fault
[23:04:19] <libbies> Zackio: so please don't blame yourself
[23:04:54] <Mikaela> I blame myself for ever falling in love with pinkieval and causing the discussion which gave birth to the idea of channel for everyone that this was supposed to be
[23:04:55] <Zackio> no it was my fault
[23:05:09] <Zackio> Mikaela: please, see sense
[23:05:14] <Zackio> i agree with olivia
[23:05:18] <Mikaela> please tell sense
[23:05:25] <Zackio> the channel name should just be ##chat2 or something now
[23:05:49] <Mikaela> no, the channel should have been ##everyone, but too late for that.
[23:05:57] <xnr> wait...
[23:06:19] <xnr> idk... something about open-minded people maybe?
[23:06:32] <Zackio> ^^^^ YES
[23:06:40] <Zackio> that's perfect
[23:07:22] <Mikaela> we were channel for everyone, then today people decided to be channel for queers, found ##queers if you wish, but we are channel for everyone even if I have to use force
[23:07:30] <Mikaela> @user list --capability=##abgilpqt+,op
[23:07:30] <Limnoria> fox, Mikaela, and progval
[23:07:37] <Mikaela> @channel capability remove fox op
[23:07:37] <Limnoria> Ok.
[23:07:46] <Zackio> i understand
[23:07:58] <xnr> because, by definition, "everyone" would include trolls and bigots and such
[23:08:15] <Mikaela> yes, that is why you see rules when you click the link
[23:08:28] <Mikaela> or take a look at the channel URL or entrymessage
[23:08:30] <xnr> "open-minded people" would by definition not include them
[23:08:55] <libbies> frankly this change makes me feel unwelcome in here
[23:09:16] <Mikaela> nothing prevents closed minds from opening if there is good heart
[23:09:40] <libbies> that's... not how it works
[23:10:57] <Mikaela> we are not some elitist channel, we are channel for everyone or at least that was the dream
[23:11:23] <libbies> sigh
[23:11:33] <Mikaela> there was nothing else I could do, I talked with pinkieval and they didn't have any other solution
[23:11:55] <Mikaela> I can paste the discussion for you
[23:11:59] <libbies> I disagree with your solution
[23:12:03] <libbies> no thanks
[23:12:25] <Mikaela> https://zero.mikaela.info/?1774e1d3d516b81a#WahBFDYzRN8RDwY8g5fb5JwM42kv105dwnAx6zlLNxk=
[23:12:25] <libbies> in a channel like this I feel like I won't be able to discuss my issues
[23:12:26] <Limnoria> Title: ZeroBin (at zero.mikaela.info)
[23:13:09] <libbies> I join non-everybody-channels so I can discuss my issues with people who understand
[23:13:16] <libbies> not everybody
[23:13:30] <Zackio> libbies: sorry for not understanding before :<
[23:14:04] <libbies> Zackio: i totally could've expressed myself better
[23:14:12] *** Joins: Ed1Ross (~Thunderbi@3e6b379a.rev.stofanet.dk)
[23:14:12] *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Ed1Ross
[23:14:24] <libbies> I'm in trans channels to talk about trans issues with trans people
[23:14:39] <Zackio> and uh
[23:14:50] <Zackio> hmm, sec
[23:14:50] <Mikaela> I can also do another thing
[23:15:29] *** Mikaela changes topic to 'A channel for everyone <https://abgilpqt.github.io/> | Previous ops are requested to tell if they are willing to be ops on channel for everyone. | Regulars are asked to inform if they still wish to be part of channel for everyone too.'
[23:15:34] <libbies> I was in this channel to discuss lgbtq+ topics with lgbtq+ people, not everybody
[23:15:35] -ChanServ- Mikaela removed all 32 non-founder access entries.
[23:15:44] -ChanServ- Mikaela used SYNC.
[23:15:44] *** ChanServ sets mode: -vvvv Serpentoj Fusl lythandrel Jake
[23:15:44] *** ChanServ sets mode: -vvvv golionz lanodan Ikarus nicoo
[23:15:44] *** ChanServ sets mode: -vvvv benonsoftware Endien horo libbies
[23:15:44] *** ChanServ sets mode: -vvvv kankan KittenGNU ChaosWitchRin FreeFull
[23:15:44] *** ChanServ sets mode: -vvv sinma Zackio Ed1Ross
[23:15:55] <Zackio> i recently "found out" (after surpressing gay thoughts for years) that i'm bi
[23:15:59] <Zackio> it was uh
[23:16:10] <Zackio> "interesting" when i "found out"
[23:16:11] * libbies hugs Zackio
[23:16:18] <Zackio> and i feel stupid for supressing said thoughts
[23:16:22] <Zackio> *surpressing
[23:16:25] * Zackio hugs libbies
[23:16:45] *** Mikaela changes topic to 'A channel for everyone, primarily for gender, sexual and romantic minorities <https://abgilpqt.github.io/> | Previous ops are requested to tell if they are willing to be ops on channel for everyone. | Regulars are asked to inform if they still wish to be part of channel for everyone too.'
[23:16:45] <Mikaela> is this better wording that you also see in the website if you even bothered to check the commits?
[23:17:45] <Mikaela> if my death will make people happier, that isn't impossible either
[23:17:55] <Zackio> don't.
[23:17:57] <Zackio> you.
[23:17:59] <Zackio> dare.
[23:18:48] <Mikaela> At least Olivia has nothing against and I can honestly say that I saw no other way and I don't still see one even though pinkieval's suggestion would have worked without misreading it
[23:19:16] <libbies> Mikaela: your death will not make anything better
[23:19:17] <xnr> Zackio: nice to hear that it was 'interesting' for you... i had a full-blown identity crisis back when i started to see myself clearly
[23:19:18] <Mikaela> 2015-04-08 22:36:43+0300 < pinkieval> what I would do is ask everyone involved to propose something they all agree on
[23:19:18] <Mikaela> I somehow turned this "propose something to everyone involved that they all agree on"
[23:19:58] <Fusl> please someone tell me when everything is okay in here again
[23:20:04] <Zackio> Fusl: i will
[23:20:04] * Fusl huggles Mikaela
[23:20:13] <Zackio> xnr: oh wow
[23:20:15] <Zackio> :(
[23:20:17] <Mikaela> Fusl: I am sorry, but the answer is most likely never, but I had no other choice
[23:20:17] * Zackio hugs xnr
[23:20:20] <libbies> Mikaela: frankly as a survivor of multiple suicide attempts, your discussion of suicide like that is incredibly triggering
[23:20:25] <Zackio> wait wow, first time i've hugged you on IRC lel
[23:20:30] *** Quits: ChaosWitchRin (~Rin@cpe-66-65-34-1.nyc.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 272 seconds)
[23:20:39] <Zackio> libbies: (it bothers me as well...)
[23:20:52] <Mikaela> I am not going to apologize for trying attempting suicide more than ten times and also self-castration
[23:20:55] <libbies> Mikaela: and i know that you do because your hurting, but you need to know how it impacts others
[23:21:16] <libbies> no one is asking you to apologize for that
[23:21:19] <libbies> just be mindful
[23:21:23] <libbies> of the others in here
[23:21:29] <Mikaela> you should sometime try putting testicles into cable tie, put it as strict as you can and then try using scrissors to cut them off
[23:21:40] <Zackio> uh.
[23:21:45] <libbies> who may well be in the same situation you are in
[23:22:02] <libbies> Mikaela: the self harm stuff is just as triggering
[23:22:37] <Mikaela> I don't have any feelings or emotions anymore
[23:23:39] <Mikaela> it's the same as when I learned that pinkieval was in open relationship with someone else and said that they didn't tell me about it just because they knew I would cry
[23:24:12] <Mikaela> or not entirely same, I am not in bed and I am able to move, I am not entirely broken and only crying
[23:28:23] <Mikaela> I take it no one else has feelings or emotions anymore either? There are still things that can be done like putting the last nail to coffin, mlocking +isp, clearing bans * and clearing users
[23:29:03] <Zackio> stop.
[23:29:06] <Zackio> no really Mikaela stop
[23:29:13] <xnr> woah there, what makes you assume "no one else has feelings [...] anymore"?
[23:29:43] <Mikaela> death has already took this channel, it was the only thing there was that I could do
[23:33:16] <libbies> Mikaela: snap out of it, you're being self destructive for no reason right now
[23:33:32] <Zackio> ^^
[23:34:02] <libbies> not everything is completely broken
[23:34:12] <libbies> and this is certainly fixable
[23:34:34] <Mikaela> like how? I am continuing the about of the death of this channel
[23:35:56] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io (in master): Mikaela Suomalainen committed The Last Drama http://git.io/veD4k
[23:36:11] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io: Status for commit The Last Drama by Mikaela Suomalainen: The Travis CI build is in progress https://travis-ci.org/abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io/builds/57706655
[23:36:33] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io: Status for commit The Last Drama by Mikaela Suomalainen: The Travis CI build is in progress https://travis-ci.org/abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io/builds/57706655
[23:37:22] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io: Status for commit The Last Drama by Mikaela Suomalainen: The Travis CI build passed https://travis-ci.org/abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io/builds/57706655
[23:37:42] *** Mikaela changes topic to '"The channel is dead and while you might some people who haven't told their clients or bouncers to leave yet, there is only death waiting." "Channel for everyone was a dream, but it cannot ever be true." <https://abgilpqt.github.io/about/#the-last-drama>'
[23:39:07] <libbies> Mikaela: why force the issue right now
[23:39:09] <libbies> why
[23:39:17] <libbies> can you please walk away?
[23:39:23] <Mikaela> it's beyond repair like me
[23:39:31] <libbies> and give yourself a day to make any decisions?
[23:39:39] <libbies> you are not beyond repair
[23:39:39] <Mikaela> walk away? and what good would that do
[23:39:48] <libbies> and the channel was doing fine
[23:40:16] <libbies> your acting on our pure emotion right now
[23:40:21] <Mikaela> the channel was doing fine until it was decided that it's elitist queer channel for queers, not channel that welcomes everyone who is just respectful
[23:40:21] <libbies> and you need to step back
[23:40:31] <libbies> and evaluate what's going on
[23:40:45] <libbies> Mikaela: come on
[23:40:50] <libbies> no one decided that
[23:41:00] <Mikaela> when I step back, I will feel everything with it's full strength and be unable to do anything else than cry or kill myself to stop it
[23:46:02] <libbies> Mikaela: are you able to recognize that this is just depression?
[23:46:17] <xnr> alright, Mikaela. close your eyes and take a deep breath. This can be worked out and be solved.
[23:46:18] <libbies> do you understand that depression can be treated?
[23:46:50] <xnr> any issue can be solved by calmly talking to each other. everone just needs to calm down
[23:46:56] <Mikaela> it's not safe for me to follow what you say
[23:49:37] <libbies> the best thing you can do right now is step back
[23:49:56] <libbies> take a breather
[23:50:31] <Mikaela> or break totally
[23:51:07] <Mikaela> do you promise me this channel will be alive again?
[23:51:29] <libbies> things can be okay if you let them be okay
[23:51:37] <Mikaela> do you promise me this channel will be alive again?
[23:52:21] <libbies> the only one who can do that is you,b by stepping back, right now
[23:52:45] <Mikaela> do you promise me this channel will be alive again?
[23:54:39] <libbies> what answer do you expect to hear from me?
[23:54:52] <Mikaela> do you promise me this channel will be alive again?
[23:55:37] <libbies> the channel is alive right now, if you let it live
[23:55:48] <Mikaela> do you promise me this channel will be alive again?
[23:55:59] <Mikaela> I exepct one word
[23:56:05] *** Quits: KittenGNU (~KittenGNU@unaffiliated/kittengnu) (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
[23:58:17] <Mikaela> from anyone
[23:58:38] *** Joins: KittenGNU (~KittenGNU@unaffiliated/kittengnu)

==> 2015-04-09.log <==
[00:06:36] <libbies> Mikaela: do you really want to see this channel survive?
[00:06:54] <libbies> is that what you really want?
[00:06:57] <Mikaela> this channel is the only thing I have left and keeping me alive by being alive
[00:07:59] <Mikaela> do you think I could let this to fall to pinkieval not ever even following it or becoming elitist one like you tried or me doing takeover and throwing olivia out and being in eternal fight with her
[00:08:02] <libbies> it's funny that ... i'm usually on the other side of this conversation
[00:08:15] <libbies> i've been through exactly this elsewhere
[00:08:38] <libbies> but on the opposite of this conversation
[00:09:01] <libbies> threatening myself and the channel I helped run, and the people in it.
[00:09:46] <libbies> usually I feel absurd and horrible about it when I calm down, because I can see how negatively I reacted, and how much of it was driven by depression
[00:15:36] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io (in master): Mikaela Suomalainen committed Revert "The Last Drama" http://git.io/veDXT
[00:15:51] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io: Status for commit Revert "The Last Drama" by Mikaela Suomalainen: The Travis CI build is in progress https://travis-ci.org/abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io/builds/57712332
[00:16:09] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io: Status for commit Revert "The Last Drama" by Mikaela Suomalainen: The Travis CI build is in progress https://travis-ci.org/abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io/builds/57712332
[00:17:16] *** Mikaela changes topic to 'fix stupid things Mikaela did, suggestions welcome, op applications also welcome, +sp until there is some level of order'
[00:18:09] <libbies> Mikaela: give oliviafox +F back
[00:18:12] <Limnoria> abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io: Status for commit Revert "The Last Drama" by Mikaela Suomalainen: The Travis CI build passed https://travis-ci.org/abgilpqt/abgilpqt.github.io/builds/57712332
[00:18:33] <Mikaela> oliviafox never had +F
[00:18:44] <libbies> or whatever it was
[00:18:50] <libbies> well scratch that
[00:18:54] <libbies> if you want to see this channel survive
[00:19:02] <libbies> give it to oliviafox so she can restart it
[00:19:06] <Mikaela> and it means founder and there were just two since the beginning and there is no good reason to add the amount
[00:20:06] <Mikaela> I have felt that making olivia sop was a mistake for longer time, but at that time I knew nothing about anything
[00:20:29] <Mikaela> the largest that I trust people is op and no one else than me never used sop
[00:21:42] <Mikaela> I also want people to ask op by themselves before listening to other people suggesting them
[00:21:59] <libbies> give me founder then :P
[00:22:42] *** Mikaela changes topic to 'fix stupid things Mikaela did, suggestions welcome, op applications also welcome, +sp until there is some level of order | People requesting founder are kbanned, it won't be given to other people than the actual founders, pinkieval and Mikaela. Please read https://abgilpqt.github.io/about'
[00:22:58] <Mikaela> amount of smilies doesn't matter and that won't help anything to be fixed
[00:23:24] <libbies> are you going to kickban me?
[00:23:51] <libbies> that would make it easier on me
[00:23:58] <Mikaela> am I morally allowed to kickban you before inventing the rule and publicly announcing it?
[00:24:17] <libbies> you seemed to already violate your morals by clearing the access list before publicly discussing it
[00:24:18] <Mikaela> I don't even understand what you would do with founder
[00:24:34] <Mikaela> what if I don't have morals anymore?
[00:24:45] <xnr> you're morally allowed to kickban anyone at any time, according to RFC 1459 1.3.1
[00:24:50] <libbies> then you'd have no qualms with kickbanning me right now
[00:25:12] <Mikaela> does this discussion work towards archeving anything?
[00:25:51] <libbies> i guess not.
[00:26:16] <libbies> i think given the alternative of
[00:26:19] <libbies> or rather
[00:26:21] <libbies> the choices of 
[00:26:28] <libbies> letting you kill the channel here and now
[00:26:30] <libbies> as opposed to
[00:26:35] <Mikaela> oh and there are things that can be done and I haven't done those, those might fix something
[00:26:37] <libbies> giving the channel to me and oliviafox to try to let it live
[00:26:45] <libbies> i think the option to take seems pretty clear to me
[00:26:49] <Mikaela> giving the channel to anyone is not an option
[00:27:00] <Mikaela> explain me where do you need founder status?
[00:27:10] <libbies> Mikaela: can I ask what you think you can do to save this channel?
[00:27:15] *** ChanServ sets mode: -bbb *!*@*162.72.70.141) $r:*cinch* Guest*!*@*
[00:27:27] <horo> .
[00:27:36] <horo> Mikaela: I don't want to see you kill yourself.
[00:27:40] <libbies> or why you think it's even dead? or needs fixing?
[00:27:44] <Mikaela> I can only wait for suggestions on what can be done
[00:27:55] <libbies> Mikaela: reset to the status quo, from two hours ago
[00:28:05] <libbies> before all of these conversations
[00:28:13] <Mikaela> The first step towards dead was elitist queer only channel
[00:28:16] <libbies> and then discuss in a meta context
[00:28:20] <libbies> fuck.
[00:28:24] <horo> And you know that I was the third person to join this channel
[00:28:26] <libbies> Mikaela: no one even suggested that seriously
[00:28:37] <Mikaela> libbies: not possible, clear flags is impossible to revert
[00:28:43] <libbies> Mikaela: we're not elitist
[00:28:46] <horo> Additionally, No one was saying that this should be a queer only channel.
[00:28:47] <libbies> Mikaela: you can manually revert
[00:28:55] <horo> Literally no one
[00:28:59] <libbies> ^
[00:29:03] <Mikaela> horo: is this channel for everyone or elitist channel only for queers putting people in different value?
[00:29:21] <horo> The point was, it is unfair on US as a whole to say that cishet people have just as much say as we discuss OUR issues. 
[00:29:24] <Mikaela> horo: does cis hetero have the same value as <GSRM person>
[00:29:44] <horo> Mikaela: does the cishet person think that we have the same value?
[00:30:21] <Mikaela> when has any cis hetero person said anything negative about our issues?
[00:30:21] <Mikaela> horo: yes or the cishet person wouldn't be following our rules or welcome here
[00:30:48] <libbies> it's not that they're negative about those issues, they simply don't understand them
[00:30:54] <horo> Mikaela: then what has changed in the rules when we make it explicitly that this is a space for ABGILPQT+ 
[00:31:07] <Mikaela> libbies: and how would they understand them if no one is willing to explain?
[00:31:41] <horo> what has changed when we say this is a queer space for queer people, cishet people must be mindful of what they say. 
[00:31:46] <horo> honestly
[00:31:59] <horo> I have kickbanned far fewer people over saying something I don't agree with than you ever have
[00:32:15] <Mikaela> horo: to me what you said seemed like elitist queer channel, not everyone and it seemed very much that you were throwing everyone that is not queer or doesn't identify as queer out
[00:32:27] <horo> I never said they had to leave
[00:32:32] <horo> I never said they had to go away
[00:32:33] <Zackio> i feel really bad
[00:32:37] <libbies> no one said they had to leave
[00:32:53] <libbies> Zackio: you're okay, and i feel just as bad as you do maybe :/
[00:32:56] <horo> I said that I'd rather we recognise that this is not a space for cishet people, and that its not okay for their needs to come over ours.
[00:32:58] <Mikaela> there was putting them into different value than other people and that is not OK
[00:33:06] <libbies> horo: ^^^^^
[00:33:10] <libbies> so much what you just said
[00:33:15] <libbies> having to do lgbtq+ 101 constantly makes addressing our issues much more difficult
[00:33:20] <Mikaela> what if the cishet person is in relationship with trans person or bi or something?
[00:33:36] <Mikaela> I cannot remember there ever being lgbtq+ 101 on this channel
[00:33:55] <Zackio> uh, probably referring to me, i keep on having to lookup terms :P
[00:33:55] <horo> Mikaela: then they probably are okay discussing everything and wouldn't be complaining about htis
[00:34:05] <horo> the whole thing was
[00:34:25] <Mikaela> yes, I am not OK with Zackio's reaction but it's not any better than your words
[00:34:39] <horo> We can't ahve a space for everyone in the channel name when there is the ability that someone will literally just start telling you how you are wrong and you hate cis people
[00:34:40] <Zackio> oh
[00:34:43] <Zackio> sorry about that Mikaela 
[00:34:43] <horo> it actually /drives/ the hate
[00:34:43] <libbies> Zackio's reaction was understandable
[00:35:08] <Zackio> but yeah, i also felt like i was being thrown out, but i do understand now
[00:35:11] <horo> this space can't be a safe space while that is happens
[00:35:12] <Zackio> tl;dr i did overreact
[00:35:27] <libbies> ^^^ horo
[00:35:35] <Mikaela> how we are wrong and hate cis people is ban as any cis person here can tell to you
[00:35:54] <horo> I've never banned a cis person that did not deserve the ban
[00:36:20] <Mikaela> and someone saying we hate cis people don't deserve ban?
[00:36:21] <horo> I've invited people that were banned from here and other places for saying things that were "not okay"
[00:36:44] <horo> Mikaela: that would include you every single time you have cried about the cistem and other things
[00:36:49] <horo> Mikaela: you are just as guilty. 
[00:37:08] <horo> They are our emotions from being treated like second class citizens.
[00:37:29] <Mikaela> any cis person should understand that
[00:37:39] <libbies> except they don't
[00:37:40] <horo> you are repeating what i am saying.
[00:37:50] <horo> You are repeating what libbies said
[00:38:01] <Zackio> (213708)       horo │ They are our emotions from being treated like second class citizens.
[00:38:03] <Zackio> (213729)   @Mikaela │ any cis person should understand that
[00:38:04] <horo> Why can't we say our emotions in extremely harsh ways 
[00:38:04] <Mikaela> then they must be eplained
[00:38:07] <Zackio> they should, but they don't
[00:38:16] <horo> but you can't
[00:38:19] <horo> do you not see what you said
[00:38:26] <Mikaela> then there is probably no other way than moving to the ban
[00:38:38] <horo> ... 
[00:38:39] <horo> really
[00:38:41] <libbies> Mikaela: why does it need to be now
[00:38:47] <libbies> Mikaela: we can keep discussing this
[00:38:57] <libbies> give it a few days
[00:39:00] <libbies> or a few weeks
[00:39:30] <Mikaela> it must be now, death is more likely every second tht passes
[00:39:40] <libbies> of the channel?
[00:39:44] <libbies> your own?
[00:39:45] <Mikaela> yes
[00:39:51] <libbies> if you're in crisis, please call a hotline right now
[00:40:13] <Mikaela> please don't ask multiple questions at the same time and confuse the answer if it's single word
[00:40:31] <Mikaela> I am quite sure that no one from hotline could solve channel drama
[00:40:35] <libbies> why does the channel need to die?
[00:40:40] <libbies> why kill it?
[00:40:46] <Mikaela> because no one is doing anything to revive it
[00:40:59] <libbies> we're trying to prevent you from killing it
[00:41:05] <libbies> i think that counts as an attempt to revive it?
[00:41:07] <Mikaela> there is just fighting on being for everyone or only queers
[00:41:10] <libbies> frankly it's not dead until you kill it
[00:41:14] <libbies> no one
[00:41:18] <libbies> no one is fighting for that
[00:41:20] <Mikaela> give me a solution and it's revived
[00:41:27] <libbies> seriously, no one is fighting for that
[00:41:31] <Mikaela> or making good progress
[00:41:38] <libbies> no one is fighting for it being queers only
[00:41:46] <Mikaela> then we can accept that we are like https://abgilpqt.github.io/ currently says?
[00:41:48] <Limnoria> Title: ##abgilpqt+ @ freenode (at abgilpqt.github.io)
[00:41:55] <libbies> you keep misunderstand the core issue of what oliviafox and I have said
[00:42:39] <libbies> that's never been in contention Mikaela
[00:42:52] <Mikaela> "We are channel for everyone, mainly gender, sexual & romantic minorities, but also welcome other people. These rules affect to everyone."
[00:42:52] <Mikaela> yes or not?
[00:43:03] <Mikaela> mainly horo ^
[00:43:17] *** Quits: sinma (~sinma@2a01:e35:8a26:6480:6a17:29ff:fe51:ff86) (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
[00:43:42] <Mikaela> -t
[00:44:10] <horo> I wholly disagree with that wording. Because if i remember, it was started to address how disjointed the LGBT community was as well as poor wording
[00:44:20] <horo> "everyone" is very poor
[00:44:32] <Mikaela> and your wording is?
[00:45:12] <horo> Mikaela: this channel is a channel for gender,seuxal,romatnic minorities. Other people are welcome to join and read but must be mindful that they are a guest to our space
[00:45:16] <horo> thats what it should have always been
[00:45:27] <horo> everyone must be mindful of everything
[00:46:12] <horo> but it is honestly not good for us to say that we cannot let out our emotions expecially those that hit us that hard
[00:46:33] <horo> As i've said, you're just as guilty with the stuff that cis people scream discrimination over
[00:46:57] <Mikaela> I guess I must accept that
[00:47:04] <Mikaela> op or sop?
[00:47:24] <horo> Mikaela: Hmm?
[00:47:35] <horo> you wish to give me my ops back still?
[00:48:09] <xnr> isnt said stuff mainly a lack of understanding
[00:48:16] *** Mikaela changes topic to 'This channel is a channel for gender, sexual & romantic minorities. Other people are welcome to join and read, but must be miindful that they are a guest to our space. | Rules: <https://abgilpqt.github.io/> | Pronouns: https://etherpad.fr/p/pronouns_abgilpqt+'
[00:48:20] *** Joins: oliviafox (~fox@freebsd/lover/oliviafox)
[00:48:24] <libbies> miindful~
[00:48:26] <Mikaela> horo: you don't want them?
[00:48:38] <oliviafox> Mikaela: I'd like the flags i had before if possible
[00:48:48] <oliviafox> i think that was sop
[00:48:54] -ChanServ- Mikaela set flags +AORVefiorstv on foxiepaws
[00:48:54] *** ChanServ sets mode: +oo horo oliviafox
[00:48:55] -ChanServ- Mikaela set flags +AORVefiorstv on KittenGNU
[00:48:55] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o KittenGNU
[00:49:36] <oliviafox> Mikaela: Another note, I'd really like you to be careful with things you discuss that are quite triggering. We all need to be. 
[00:49:44] *** Mikaela changes topic to 'This channel is a channel for gender, sexual & romantic minorities. Other people are welcome to join and read, but must be miindful that they are a guest to our space. | Rules: <https://abgilpqt.github.io/> | Pronouns: https://etherpad.fr/p/pronouns_abgilpqt+ | TODO: Someone please PR this topic update to CoC'
[00:49:52] <libbies> miindful
[00:50:19] <oliviafox> The suicide and self harm things can very much trigger everyone on the channel. I know i can be just as guilty and I'm working on it
[00:50:25] <oliviafox> I'm also aware of just how hard it is.
[00:50:30] <Mikaela> I cannot affect it
[00:50:55] <oliviafox> Mikaela: at least try to put a trigger warning when something like that is going to be discussed so people can ignore this channel
[00:51:05] <libbies> frankly, if that's the attitude you're taking, this channel really is no longer safe for me
[00:51:10] <libbies> and i'm just going to leave
[00:51:15] <Mikaela> @later tell pinkieval you are missing two factor authentication
[00:51:16] <Limnoria> Ok.
[00:51:33] <Mikaela> I don't know what to do with it, it's not any easier for me than to anyone near me
[00:52:07] <libbies> even an attitude of "i'll try" is better than this
[00:52:10] <Mikaela> the only thing I could possibly do is having my HRT stopped because of psychiatrical hospital system in Finland and that is worse than death
[00:52:14] <Mikaela> fine, I will try
[00:52:59] <Mikaela> "You've invited Olivia Theze to ##abgilpqt+! They'll be receiving an email shortly. They can also visit https://github.com/abgilpqt to accept the invitation."
[00:53:02] <Limnoria> Title: ##abgilpqt+ · GitHub (at github.com)
[00:53:09] <oliviafox> why do ... oh
[00:53:33] <oliviafox> i don't see it
[00:54:11] <Zackio> :)
[00:54:55] <Mikaela> I don't feel like I am able to do anything to the CoC now and I am not able to make myself set flags of regular *user*, because most of those haven't talked n ages and many will probably leave when taking a look at the channel
[00:55:49] <Mikaela> oliviafox: /cs flags ##abgilpqt+ <person> user
[00:55:49] <Mikaela> which you have never done, but maybe you could use your judgement with that at least now
[00:56:02] *** Parts: libbies (sid18832@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-wcdsvdecsjavbfbh) ("honestly,")
[00:56:11] <oliviafox> I am willing to 
[00:56:49] <oliviafox> Mikaela: I'd really like you to try to be more mindful though. allof the the ops need to remember that we need to apply the rules to ourselves as well
[00:56:53] <xnr> *sigh*
[00:57:35] <Mikaela> "If the queen doesn't follow the law she sets, why would anyone else follow it either" ̃~~ Queen something in The Wheel of Time
[00:58:02] <oliviafox> as for libbies, if you can try maybe I can invite her back sometime. She had informed me a lot of the things you've said for a while have been quite triggering for her
[00:58:07] <oliviafox> which is understandable
[00:59:33] <Mikaela> I have no idea what to do with those feeligs, I cannot just keep them inside me
[00:59:44] <oliviafox> Mikaela: maybe start a journal
[00:59:50] <oliviafox> Its what I did
[00:59:55] <Mikaela> how?
[01:00:51] <oliviafox> Mine is just a directory ~/.journal, chmodded and acled and flagged as much as possible, 
[01:03:01] <Mikaela> but it would never reply
[01:03:18] <oliviafox> Mikaela: well the thing is
[01:03:32] <oliviafox> you can share these posts you make, with the appropriate warnings what whatnot
[01:03:53] <oliviafox> and people can send you PMs and other messages that help you tackle the exact feelings you have
[01:03:55] <Mikaela> with who and how?
[01:04:31] <Mikaela> and how do you sync it?
[01:05:53] <oliviafox> Mikaela: i have various journal posts put up on my server
[01:05:57] <oliviafox> in various directories 
[01:06:16] <oliviafox> i generally link them in PM because i put a lot of personal feelings in them
[01:06:43] <oliviafox> purely technology wise, i sync them using git 
[01:06:55] <Mikaela> where do you put them for linking?
[01:07:04] <oliviafox> They are on foxiepa.ws
[01:07:20] <oliviafox> an example would be (this will 404
[01:08:13] <oliviafox> [TW: Self Harm, Transphobia, Sex] http://foxiepa.ws/.journals/<date> reply in PM 
[01:08:13] *** Limnoria changes topic to 'This channel is a channel for gender, sexual & romantic minorities. Other people are welcome to join and read, but must be miindful that they are a guest to our space. | Rules: <https://abgilpqt.github.io/> | Pronouns: https://etherpad.fr/p/pronouns_abgilpqt+ | TODO: Someone please PR this topic update to CoC | Also do something with flags'
[01:09:41] <Mikaela> I cannot ever remember you saying those and would anyone ever even read them
[01:10:00] <oliviafox> as i said 
[01:10:06] <oliviafox> I normally would do it in PM
[01:10:13] <oliviafox> or in other channels
[01:10:24] <Mikaela> you would PM a person with that?
[01:10:28] <oliviafox> also my tumblr has several that i bounced off of mtfconfessions
[01:10:35] <oliviafox> Mikaela: the trigger warning and link yes
[01:10:54] <Mikaela> I have no one I could give those
[01:11:19] <Mikaela> of course better to have them read by no one thn trigger people on channels
[01:11:38] <Mikaela> but would it change anything?
[01:12:13] <oliviafox> Mikaela: the thing is, by writing these things you start to build something you can work with and spot other issues
[01:12:56] <Mikaela> but it's not something I could keep just to myself anymore
[01:13:13] <oliviafox> you don't have to keep it to yourself 
[01:13:18] <oliviafox> thats the glorious thing about it
[01:13:33] <Mikaela> but I have no one I could ask to read it
[01:14:16] <oliviafox> I'd read them and try to help
[01:14:30] <Mikaela> but you have your own issues
[01:17:49] <oliviafox> yes, but i also don't trigger easily
[01:18:12] <Mikaela> there are also other issues
[01:19:05] <oliviafox> if the issues involve me 
[01:19:08] <oliviafox> then i can understand thta
[01:19:48] <Mikaela> I don't feel like I can trust you
[01:19:48] <Mikaela> and I don't deserve to bother you after my behaviour tonight
[01:20:05] <Mikaela> deserve is wrong word here, just cannot
[01:20:38] <oliviafox> I don't understand why you think you can't trust me, but fair enough
[01:21:08] <Mikaela> I cannot really trust anyone and that is just feeling I have
[01:22:47] <Mikaela> have you ever written about your way to somewhere publicly visible? having something about this and that mentioned in the rules could be useful
[01:23:08] <oliviafox> Mikaela: I have not
[01:23:26] <oliviafox> tbh I try not to because i don't want people looking for my posts.
[01:25:05] <Mikaela> but this channel is bound to have more than me crying and that could help a lot with it an dtriggers
[01:25:36] <oliviafox> Mikaela: additionally, the whole thing also allows people that might not have your same expoerience to understand a bit better
[01:25:49] <oliviafox> when they can see as a whole more of your feelings
[01:26:33] <Mikaela> isn't http://mikaela.info/english/2015/04/03/scum.html clear enough on my feelings? I don't have anything else
[01:26:35] <Limnoria> Title: Scum (at mikaela.info)
[01:29:31] <oliviafox> Mikaela: thats exactly the kind of thing
[01:29:49] <oliviafox> that you need to do
[01:30:25] <Mikaela> so it's cping the same thing daily again and again as there are noo changes
[01:30:41] <oliviafox> Mikaela: no
[01:31:07] <oliviafox> it can be short
[01:31:40] <oliviafox> e.g. Today some people I go to school with mocked me, and it caused these feelings 
[01:31:56] <oliviafox> (im purposely like, reducing a lot of stuff to avoid triggers in channel)
[01:32:38] <Mikaela> but can we even talk if it's just trigger after trigger?
[01:33:45] <oliviafox> right now I'd just like to get a feel for that is hypertriggering for people
[01:34:08] <oliviafox> and also for who else is interested here. 
[01:34:16] <oliviafox> hence me not giving anyone flags.
[01:34:45] <Mikaela> I don't understand
[01:35:34] <oliviafox> Mikaela: I don't want to purposely write triggering things in the channel trying to discuss something when people might already be upset
[01:35:48] <Mikaela> I mean flags
[01:36:08] <oliviafox> Mikaela: I don't want to just +v everyone that was +v'd before
[01:36:17] <oliviafox> I wanna wait and see who talks again
[01:36:41] <Mikaela> I think I also said something about that. How long will you judge the talking? The traditional week?
[01:37:14] <oliviafox> Mikaela: I'm unsure, I think a week will be good for this time, i might do before I might do after 
[01:37:52] <Mikaela> I have already once decided that it's stupid artificial limit and it should be just seed that the person has been active on more than one day
[01:38:22] <oliviafox> Mikaela: I think it should be based on if the person is conducive to the channel
[01:38:57] <oliviafox> Also, I think it would be good to have a glossary or something like that 
[01:39:12] <Mikaela> and this trigger thing is going to unhealthy direction as I see many ways how you cannot say anything because of trigger
[01:39:12] <Mikaela> ,,,(translate en fi conducive)
[01:39:13] <Limnoria> Error: Error: HTTP Error 503: Service Unavailable
[01:39:41] <Mikaela> it would just need sommeone to write one
[01:40:20] <Mikaela> do you mind a PM?
[01:40:30] <oliviafox> you may PM
[01:41:18] <xnr> the reason i came back to the channel was because i thought this would be a place where i could get comfortable enough to talk about my feelings 
[01:41:39] <xnr> the longer i stay here, the more i begin to realize this doesnt seem to be the case
[01:41:58] <oliviafox> xnr: i'm waiting to get an idea of everyones feelings on everything /before/ saying anything is okay
[01:41:59] <Mikaela> you joined at the worst possible time
[01:42:29] <xnr> whatever happens next here there will be underlying tensions 
[01:42:43] <oliviafox> xnr: I don't want to say "its totally okay to discuss suicide, self-harm, etc as you need and you'll get an audience that is able to assist" without knowiung that everyone is okay with that
[01:43:12] <oliviafox> I want to make sure everyone here is okay with discussing emotions and figure out what issues need to be addressed beforehand and better ways
[01:43:38] <oliviafox> e.g. asking if its okay to discuss a certain triggeirng topic so people can ignore here for a while and be poked by an op or something after
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[01:47:09] <xnr> maybe i'll be back after waiting another 11 months 
[01:47:12] <xnr> or maybe earlier
[01:47:21] *** Parts: xnr (xnrand@unaffiliated/xy) ("or maybe never")
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[01:51:21] <Euryale> Mikaela: For the record, I operate two channels with very strict trigger rules and lots of discussion happens. Both channels are alive and healthy.
[01:51:43] <Euryale> ... one of them specifically /because/ we have strict trigger rules
[01:51:46] <Mikaela> I wonder if I am allwoed to say that you make you very uncomfortable
[01:51:57] <Mikaela> *make me
[01:51:57] <Euryale> what?!
[01:52:03] <Euryale> how?
[01:52:33] <Mikaela> how I initially know you is attacking my identity and then asking questions on why I am op on channel I co-founded
[01:52:59] <Mikaela> but of course that is triggering towards you and thus I am not allowed to say it on channel or any way communicate it to you
[01:56:17] <Euryale> you co-founded a channel for gender and sexual minorities yet you don't identify as a gender, or sexual minority even though you /are/
[01:56:39] <Mikaela> and there you are again attacking my identity
[01:56:41] <oliviafox> .
[01:56:42] <Euryale> and yes, as a queer person I have every right to ask why someone who considers themselves straight is in charge of a queer space
[01:56:59] <Mikaela> I identify as trans girl/woman depending on space and romantic asexual
[01:57:30] <Euryale> then... I seriously don't understand why you didn't understand my point earlier
[01:57:56] <Mikaela> your point being what? There is too much scrollback currently
[01:58:18] <Euryale> you create a space for gender and sexual minorities... it is a space for gender and sexual /minorities/. A place where our needs and our feelings should be prioritized over cishet people's
[01:58:29] <Euryale> if you're in a GSM space and you're cishet you are a /guest/ and have no inherent right to be there
[01:58:31] <Mikaela> I create space for everyone
[01:58:51] <oliviafox> then don't name it and show it as a space for GSM people
[01:58:57] <Euryale> ^ thank you
[01:58:57] <oliviafox> that is counterintuitive
[01:59:07] <Mikaela> sorry for not being wiser year and some months ago
[02:00:07] <Euryale> ?
[02:02:43] <Mikaela> 2014-03-20
[02:02:43] <Mikaela> not some months
[02:06:16] <oliviafox> Thats the thing , if this channel was named ##everyone 
[02:06:22] <oliviafox> there would be no argument
[02:07:08] <Mikaela> are you able to go back in time to tell me or pinkieval to name the channel as ##everyone instead of ##abglpqt+ ?
[02:07:23] <oliviafox> i actually think i somewhat said that
[02:07:40] <oliviafox> remember i was the first person to join when it was ##Abglpqt+
[02:08:08] <Mikaela> the only thing I remember was you complaining about rename with the i
[02:08:52] <oliviafox> Mikaela: nope
[02:09:09] <oliviafox> Mikaela: i was like "is this a channel for everyone or for US" or something along the lines of that
[02:09:32] <Mikaela> I cannot remember
[02:10:01] <Mikaela> but does it really matter? we are on this channel and the name is too established to change
[02:10:16] <oliviafox> and remember i was saying i was cisgay/genderqueer then
[02:10:23] <oliviafox> I would like bounce
[02:10:38] <oliviafox> Mikaela: it really does matter imo
[02:10:46] <Mikaela> I only remember someone from trigger warning calling you as cross dresser
[02:11:23] <oliviafox> We have to make sure that the space serves its name and topic and everything
[02:11:28] <Mikaela> and also offending you when you withdrew when you first came out as girl and I accidentally hurt you
[02:11:36] <oliviafox> its quite important that we do.
[02:11:47] <Mikaela> I probably cannot deny that
[02:12:00] <Mikaela> but does it justify attacking me for not being minority enough?
[02:12:09] <oliviafox> Mikaela: no one attacked you for that
[02:12:15] <Euryale> nobody's attacking you for not being... what?
[02:12:16] <Mikaela> Euryale did
[02:12:20] <oliviafox> no she didn't
[02:12:30] <Euryale> no, I didn't...
[02:12:45] <Mikaela> 2015-04-09 01:56:17+0300 < Euryale> you co-founded a channel for gender and sexual minorities yet you don't identify as a gender, or sexual minority even though you /are/
[02:12:45] <Euryale> I said maybe if you don't identify with the community you shouldn't be a community leader
[02:13:07] <Mikaela> why do you think I am here if I don't?
[02:13:18] <oliviafox> Mikaela: you very clearly earlier got upset
[02:13:29] <oliviafox> at me insinuating that you fit into queer 
[02:13:38] <Mikaela> I am still upset
[02:14:00] <oliviafox> maybe its poor wording some people don't think that means gsm 
[02:14:04] <Mikaela> you can read from my blog, mainly Scum/Saasta why I don't
[02:14:48] <oliviafox> I foret that its still used as an attack by people 
[02:14:51] <oliviafox> as well
[02:15:13] <oliviafox> That does not change what i was saying
[02:15:38] <Mikaela> why to not be on queer channels then?
[02:15:44] <oliviafox> I am
[02:15:46] <Euryale> ... which is fair, but you're still GSM and the topic /at hand/ is whether or not cishet people have an inherent right to be in GSM space and I hold that they do /not/
[02:15:53] <oliviafox> ^ 
[02:16:13] <oliviafox> Euryale: thanks for like, wording things far better than i can
[02:16:19] <Euryale> <3
[02:16:29] <Mikaela> in Finnish queer is pervo which is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraphilia
[02:16:30] <Limnoria> Title: Paraphilia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (at en.wikipedia.org)
[02:16:44] <oliviafox> Fair enough
[02:16:56] <oliviafox> I'll try to watch that wording because language is weird
[02:17:18] <Mikaela> I still feel like Euryale is just attacking me
[02:17:24] <oliviafox> and that is upsetting
[02:33:10] *** horo was kicked by oliviafox (horo)
[02:33:12] *** Parts: oliviafox (~fox@freebsd/lover/oliviafox) ("WeeChat 1.1.1")
[02:36:04] <KittenButt> So, I'm still at the backlog of 11:45 PM here. 
[02:36:16] <KittenButt> Just saying this as I will voice myself after I've read all of this shit
[02:42:24] <KittenButt> Mikaela: The channel isn't dying nor is it dead. Nor does it seem that anyone want this space to be queer-exclusive only. Nor did anyone argue that we're better then cis / hetero people. But people here are correct that they do have a privilege issue, and will have issues understanding our difficulties. This channel will still stay open for everyone, as long as they're MINDFUL that this is indeed an LGBTQ* space, and cis / hetero folks 
[02:42:24] <KittenButt> as allies needs to take this in account when we discuss our issues.
[02:44:46] <Euryale> <3
[02:44:55] <Mikaela> KittenButt: and what do you think about this issue I have with Euryale? Euryale can apparently say that I don't identify as trans girl/woman or romantic asexual while Euryale is not me and I don't understand how someone else can decide my identity
[02:45:46] <Mikaela> 2015-04-09 01:56:17+0300 < Euryale> you co-founded a channel for gender and sexual minorities yet you don't identify as a gender, or sexual minority even though you /are/
[02:47:00] <Euryale> Mikaela: I have met you. You once joined one of my channels /as a trans woman/
[02:47:22] <Mikaela> Euryale: I cannot remember seeing you ever before today
[02:47:31] <Mikaela> Euryale: and how can you decide who I am?
[02:48:15] <Euryale> well... if you're a woman (which you apparently are because you said you are) and if you were born with a penis (which you apparently were) then you're trans :1
[02:48:23] <KittenButt> Mikaela: Her previous username was SamanthaD
[02:48:40] <Euryale> KittenButt: I think my interactions with her were post-switch
[02:48:54] <KittenButt> Euryale: you where here before that too
[02:48:57] <KittenButt> Euryale: I invited you
[02:48:58] <Mikaela> I think someone with that name has been here once
[02:49:01] <Euryale> oh right!
[02:49:32] <Mikaela> Euryale: I am still confused on the bolded part of my paste, how can you say anything like that?
[02:49:53] <Euryale> Mikaela: you said it.
[02:50:06] <Euryale> but apparently I misunderstood what you said
[02:50:08] <KittenButt> Euryale: :P well being a trans-woman she doesn't fall under the LGBTQ* umbrella. 
[02:50:14] <Mikaela> Euryale: I can swear that I have never said anything about identifying as anything else than that
[02:50:37] <Mikaela> or actually I have, many trans feminine identities which include the word trans
[02:51:39] <KittenButt> Mikaela: What she was reacting on was you said you felt excluded by people saying this is a queer space. Queer is a synonym to LGBTQ*
[02:52:12] <Mikaela> Not in my language and I think it's question of how people identity and I am uncomfortable being called as queer
[02:53:06] <Mikaela> and I still have no idea how saying that I am uncomfortable with being called as queer means that I don't identify as what I do
[02:53:41] *** Joins: amelia_ (~amelia@host81-157-131-128.range81-157.btcentralplus.com)
[02:54:34] <KittenButt> Well you have to understand that the rest can't just drop our usage of being labeled as such. You're however allowed to say you don't wish to be labeled as such of course.
[02:54:59] <Mikaela> I think I have said that I wish to not be labeled as such
[02:55:08] <KittenButt> Fine. Then people won't
[02:55:14] <Euryale> Mikaela: ... and I stopped calling you 'queer' when you made that sentiment known :1
[02:55:48] <Mikaela> Euryale: you never said anything on how you can decide that I don't identify as trans girl or romantic asexual nor you apologized
[02:56:17] <KittenButt> Mikaela: She never said you weren't trans or aces
[02:56:26] <Mikaela> the only thing that even distantly that is that I have said that I am bad trans person and human in that blog post titled Scum and maybe I have said that I hate being trans and asexual, but never anything about identifying
[02:56:48] <Mikaela> KittenButt: they said that 2015-04-09 01:56:17+0300 < Euryale> you co-founded a channel for gender and sexual minorities yet you don't identify as a gender, or sexual minority even though you /are/
[02:56:58] <Mikaela> and the part that I am bolding is the most probematic feeling to me
[02:58:11] <Euryale> "I don't identify as queer" means that, in English.
[02:58:15] <Euryale> anyway... doesn't matter
[02:58:46] <Mikaela> so if I don't identify as queer, my whole identity is invalid as I am not allowed to identify as trans or ace?
[02:59:07] <Euryale> you just said you hate the fact that you're trans and ace though :1
[02:59:28] <Euryale> I think internalized cisheteronormativity /is a problem/ in a community leader
[02:59:37] <Mikaela> yes and using the word queer makes it feel worse, but I never said anything about not identifying as those two
[02:59:37] <Euryale> or... in a person who has placed themselves in the position of community leader
[03:00:15] <Mikaela> I am not sure how I have internalized cisheteronormativity if I refer to everyone using singular they until they have told me their preferred pronouns or I have forgotten them
[03:01:05] <Euryale> you just said you hate being trans and you hate being ace :1
[03:01:15] <Mikaela> did you ever read that post where I have referred multiple times? http://mikaela.info/english/2015/04/03/scum.html
[03:01:16] <Limnoria> Title: Scum (at mikaela.info)
[03:01:32] <Mikaela> yes, I can say that I have said that, but I haven't said that I don't identify as either
[03:01:38] <Mikaela> oh and that post has trigger warning
[03:02:54] <Mikaela> "I am probably bad human, because I am in disputes with everyone everywhere and I am not good trans either, because I only wish that I was cis girl and neurotypical and that someone could love me some day."
[03:06:30] <Mikaela> Euryale: you are also the first person ever having voiced any kind of issue with me being co-founder of the channel and that is also questionable as it's not even 24 hours from since you joined
[03:07:00] <Mikaela> I don't count your previous nick as it was removed from the access list many access list clearings ago before todays one
[03:10:46] <KittenButt> THAT BEING SAID Mikaela, some of the way you reacted afterwards was not okay either. I know you struggle a lot, but that's no way acceptable to take it out on others. You're not the only one in this channel that have had rather gruesome experiences, and bringing it up the way you did hurt a lot for some. Especially oliviafox didn't deserve being treated the way she did.
[03:12:05] <Mikaela> KittenButt: I have said that I am sorry and I still don't understand and Olivia doesn't want to say anything to me about what I am not understanding
[03:12:21] <KittenButt> Mikaela: Well because she's quite hurt right now. 
[03:12:43] <KittenButt> So that's not exactly hard to understand she not wanting to talk to you for the time being
[03:12:43] <Mikaela> KittenButt: can you explain then?
[03:13:48] <Mikaela> I am hurt, because I am told that I am not identifying as what I identify as and I never hear even apology about it or explaining why to think so. I am also upset for being told that I cannot be co-founder of this channel, because I am apparently cisheteronormative even if I use gender enutral pronouns when I don't know what to use
[03:18:06] <KittenButt> Mikaela: For one, you're not listening to the others. As for Euryale's comment, I don't agree with it, you'll have talk to her about it. You're LGBT, no one else can say otherwise. Done. Secondly, I'm very sure you know what it means to be triggered, which is what you do when you recite your suicidal tendencies. IT ALSO BECOMES A TOKEN to abuse others.
[03:19:32] <KittenButt> Since this been the situation in practice: you'll end your life, unless xyz. That's not okay. And I'm fully aware it's not that simple, and I know you're in CONSIDERABLE PAIN. But you're taking it out on others. And you can't keep on ranting about it in a SAFE SPACE.
[03:19:40] <Mikaela> Euryale doesn't appear to be saying anything to me no matter how much  Iask. I think I have stopped talking about my suicidal feelings on channel hours ago when olivia suggested keeping diary. I don't undertand what you mean with tooken to abuse others
[03:20:03] <KittenButt> Mikaela: We'll you've alienated quite a few people this night.
[03:20:16] <Mikaela> As I said, I haven't talked about it in hours
[03:20:25] <KittenButt> ...
[03:20:40] <Mikaela> I feel like so too, I am understanding people even less every day that passes and I fear I don't soon understand anyone at all
[03:23:06] <KittenButt> Mikaela: oliviafox voiced her concern an hour ago. 
[03:23:15] <KittenButt> and she's been bothered by it for a while
[03:23:18] <KittenButt> so have others.
[03:23:27] <Mikaela> I am sorry for having born
[03:23:51] <Mikaela> and I am crying currently or very near
[03:24:46] <Mikaela> KittenButt: please explain to me
[03:25:25] <KittenButt> Mikaela: Explain to you what exactly.
[03:25:37] <Mikaela> I don't know, I don't understand anything
[03:27:04] <KittenButt> Mikaela: Well my tips is then you can't self-loathe on this, and rather read the logs and examine what people have said to you, and vice verca. You've not been the only one at fault this night Mikaela. But you should defineatly listen to what olivafox have said to you, so  that's said...
[03:27:33] <Mikaela> I was listening to her, but I don't understand and she doesn't open anything
[03:29:33] <KittenButt> Mikaela: Right now there will be no her opening to you. So I SAY AGAIN, read the logs over, carefully. If you don't get it, EXAMINE OVER what's been said, if you don't get it then, then you can ask questions...
[03:29:48] <KittenButt> I DON'T know what else to say to you
[03:30:16] <KittenButt> All I know is this went WAAAAAY out of hand, and have hurt the channel.
[03:30:37] <Mikaela> what I wish is this being just nightmare of me breaking the channel entirely and losing all friends and people I have ever cared about
[03:30:38] <KittenButt> Since members feel hurt and alienated over this.
[03:31:13] <Mikaela> I feel so too, but I don't understand
[03:31:33] <Mikaela> and I am also scared of myself, what will I be when I understand nothing what people say
[04:07:03] <Mikaela> http://mikaela.info/english/2015/04/09/i-am-bad-person.html
[04:07:04] <Limnoria> Title: I am a bad person (at mikaela.info)
[04:25:18] *** Joins: ChaosWitchRin (~Rin@cpe-66-65-34-1.nyc.res.rr.com)
[05:22:05] *** Joins: KittenGNU (~KittenGNU@unaffiliated/kittengnu)
[05:22:05] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o KittenGNU
[05:22:13] *** Quits: KittenButt (~KittenGNU@unaffiliated/kittengnu) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[05:31:15] *** Joins: \b (uid58957@ubuntu/member/benonsoftware)
[07:21:34] <pinkieval> wtf
[07:21:34] <Limnoria> pinkieval: Sent 6 hours and 30 minutes ago: <Mikaela> you are missing two factor authentication
[07:22:39] <pinkieval> Mikaela | @later tell pinkieval you are missing two factor authentication -> ?
[07:41:17] *** Quits: \b (uid58957@ubuntu/member/benonsoftware) (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity)
[10:11:44] <Endien> Mornings!
[10:11:49] <Endien> Whoa, what's been going on here?
[10:13:09] <Ikarus> I am just as confused
[10:15:21] <Endien> Ok. Wow. Unlike my normal habits, I just scrolled a bit of the backlog (I don't usually bother with the backlog, feels weird reading stuff from when you're not there.)
[10:17:15] <Endien> Seems like a very explosive topic from the random bits I read. Probably better not to get into it. Stating this so that people don't think I'm ignoring it all, but I just don't think it's a good idea to disucss it. I'm open to being refuted on this, but without further commentary, I'll leave it be because it's not my business.
[10:55:01] *** Quits: galex-713 (~user@89-92-167-134.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr) (Ping timeout: 248 seconds)
[11:38:22] *** Quits: KittenGNU (~KittenGNU@unaffiliated/kittengnu) (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
[11:42:28] <Zackio> Mikaela: hi?
[11:43:31] *** Joins: KittenGNU (~KittenGNU@unaffiliated/kittengnu)
[11:43:31] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o KittenGNU
[12:05:23] *** Joins: Ed1Ross (~Thunderbi@3e6b379a.rev.stofanet.dk)
[13:06:22] *** Quits: Ed1Ross (~Thunderbi@3e6b379a.rev.stofanet.dk) (Quit: Je Vais T'Aimer <3 Mon wafflé! (>^.^)>#)
[13:52:38] *** Quits: ChaosWitchRin (~Rin@cpe-66-65-34-1.nyc.res.rr.com) (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
[14:36:41] *** Joins: Mikaela (mikaela@unaffiliated/mikaela)
[14:36:52] *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Mikaela
[14:36:53] *** Limnoria sets mode: +o Mikaela
[14:36:53] *** Server sets mode: +Cgnpstz 
[14:36:53] *** Server sets mode: +Cgnpstz 
[14:40:25] *** Joins: sinma (~sinma@2a01:e35:8a26:6480:6a17:29ff:fe51:ff86)
[15:53:45] *** Joins: Ed1Ross (~Thunderbi@3e6b379a.rev.stofanet.dk)
[16:11:21] <Fusl> Zackio: mau
[16:12:22] <Zackio> hi fus
[16:12:24] <Zackio> hi Fusl
[16:12:45] <Fusl> Zackio: sup?
[16:20:08] <Zackio> Fusl: not much you ok?
[16:20:22] <Fusl> ye i'm fine atm
[16:20:24] <Fusl> how are you?
[16:21:14] <Zackio> good thanks :)
[17:33:47] *** Quits: Ed1Ross (~Thunderbi@3e6b379a.rev.stofanet.dk) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[17:57:44] *** Joins: Ed1Ross (~Thunderbi@3e6b379a.rev.stofanet.dk)
[18:33:51] *** Quits: Ed1Ross (~Thunderbi@3e6b379a.rev.stofanet.dk) (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)
[18:40:39] *** Joins: Euryale_ (~Euryale@unaffiliated/euryale)
[18:40:48] *** Quits: Euryale (~Euryale@unaffiliated/euryale) (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
[18:41:55] *** Euryale_ is now known as Euryale
[22:18:00] <Mikaela> 2015-04-09 22:11:41+0300 < miasma> setxkbmap -option "nbsp:none"
[22:18:00] <Mikaela> remind me about that, especially pinkieval as that is the way for disabling non breakable space which always breaks Limnoria and topics
[23:03:49] *** Joins: galex-713 (~user@89-92-167-134.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr)
[23:40:30] *** Joins: Ed1Ross (~Thunderbi@3e6b379a.rev.stofanet.dk)
[23:42:06] *** Quits: galex-713 (~user@89-92-167-134.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr) (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
[23:52:55] *** Joins: galex-713 (~user@89-92-167-134.hfc.dyn.abo.bbox.fr)
```

The issue which will recur is here in these logs:

> [01:56:17] \<Euryale\> you co-founded a channel for gender and sexual minorities yet you don't identify as a gender, or sexual minority even though you /are/

Apparently this person believes they can decide how I identify regardless of what I say or what my website says etc. I am probably not exception and you can replace me with anyone else in this.

There was also afterwards removed blog post that has since been removed: https://github.com/Mikaela/mikaela.github.io/commit/711f4021dbabe56cf92ecca05a3caaf97a4804be?short_path=f5026c8#diff-f5026c8b0ffd48379e3cfa166e1cc8c1

### pinkieval / @ProgVal

*See also https://mikaela.info/english/2015/05/18/life-bot-background.html to understand this part better.*

```
==> 2015-04-08.weechatlog <==
2015-04-08 22:28:37	--	[pinkieval] (progval@pdpc/supporter/student/progval): Val Lorentz
2015-04-08 22:28:38	--	[pinkieval] #wikidata #liberte0 #xomg #projetpp @#quotalove @##abgilpqt+ @##libre #geekfeminism #supybot +##feminism #limnoria #progval #python-fr +#supybot-fr
2015-04-08 22:28:38	--	[pinkieval] wolfe.freenode.net (Stockholm, SE)
2015-04-08 22:28:38	--	[pinkieval] is using a secure connection
2015-04-08 22:28:38	--	[pinkieval] idle: 00 hours 00 minutes 05 seconds, signon at: 2015-03-30 18:22:13+0300
2015-04-08 22:28:38	--	[pinkieval] is logged in as ProgVal
2015-04-08 22:28:38	--	[pinkieval] End of /WHOIS list.
2015-04-08 22:28:42	 Mikaela	have you followed the channel?
2015-04-08 22:28:59	 pinkieval	only highlights
2015-04-08 22:29:15	 Mikaela	of course not, shortly they decided to make it queer only and exclude cishet people and while Zackio's reaction is not accaeptable, it's not the channell for everyone that we made
2015-04-08 22:29:28	 pinkieval	indeed
2015-04-08 22:30:20	 Mikaela	do you have any solution?
2015-04-08 22:30:20	 Mikaela	mine would be unflagging everyone else and fixing topics and website and then reflag people, but olivia and kitten don't need sop capability
2015-04-08 22:30:20	 Mikaela	everyone else includes you, but I would have to restore your flags after it
2015-04-08 22:30:54	 pinkieval	what does it have to do with flags?
2015-04-08 22:31:17	 pinkieval	and why do you want to remove them and then restore them?
2015-04-08 22:31:21	 Mikaela	if they have no flags, they have no power to exclude people
2015-04-08 22:31:30	 Mikaela	so I can fix everything without interruptions
2015-04-08 22:31:53	 Mikaela	do you have any better idea?
2015-04-08 22:32:31	 pinkieval	-__-
2015-04-08 22:33:08	 pinkieval	this channel is so complicated
2015-04-08 22:33:18	 pinkieval	i did not create it to do politics
2015-04-08 22:33:21	 Mikaela	yes, I know, I am working based on my emotions and I have negative feelings to you too, but I am not the person #limnoria things me to be
2015-04-08 22:34:10	 Mikaela	you did it to create a channel for everyone, because we talked about it and I was in love even if you didn't know it at that time and even if it's long gone
2015-04-08 22:35:26	 Mikaela	better idea is very welcome, I feel like doing my idea would cause further breakage, but maybe it would still heal with time
2015-04-08 22:36:43	 pinkieval	what I would do is ask everyone involved to propose something they all agree on
2015-04-08 22:36:49	 pinkieval	anyway
2015-04-08 22:36:53	 pinkieval	time to sleep
2015-04-08 22:37:04	 Mikaela	but we are too broken
2015-04-08 22:37:04	 Mikaela	how can you go to sleep with this?
2015-04-08 22:37:45	 pinkieval	with what? more disagreements on ##abgilpqt+? it's far from being the first time
2015-04-08 22:38:06	 Mikaela	##abgilpqt+ is the only thing I have left and what I am truly part of
2015-04-08 22:43:08	 pinkieval	you won't lose the channel just after a conflict
2015-04-08 22:43:23	 pinkieval	and if you do, it means it's already in quite a bad state
2015-04-08 22:43:38	 Mikaela	but it's channel for everyone, not channel for queers
2015-04-08 22:44:04	 Mikaela	I have made bad choises earlier too and I have already lost you and Limnoria and part of myself
2015-04-08 22:44:04	--	[pinkieval] is away: Detached from screen
2015-04-08 22:44:34	 Mikaela	if you are going to disappear and won't say anything, I will do my plan soon
2015-04-08 22:47:10	 Mikaela	I am waiting until 23+0300 unless I hear something from you

==> 2015-04-09.weechatlog <==
2015-04-09 03:25:26	--	[pinkieval] (progval@pdpc/supporter/student/progval): Val Lorentz
2015-04-09 03:25:26	--	[pinkieval] #wikidata #liberte0 #xomg #projetpp @#quotalove @##abgilpqt+ @##libre #geekfeminism #supybot +##feminism #limnoria #progval #python-fr +#supybot-fr
2015-04-09 03:25:26	--	[pinkieval] wolfe.freenode.net (Stockholm, SE)
2015-04-09 03:25:26	--	[pinkieval] is away: Detached from screen
2015-04-09 03:25:26	--	[pinkieval] is using a secure connection
2015-04-09 03:25:26	--	[pinkieval] idle: 04 hours 38 minutes 15 seconds, signon at: 2015-03-30 18:22:13+0300
2015-04-09 03:25:26	--	[pinkieval] is logged in as ProgVal
2015-04-09 03:25:26	--	[pinkieval] End of /WHOIS list.
2015-04-09 04:19:44	 Mikaela	http://mikaela.info/english/2015/04/09/i-am-bad-person.html
2015-04-09 04:19:44	 Mikaela	you must read that when you wake up
2015-04-09 04:19:44	 Mikaela	punish me from it greaty
2015-04-09 04:19:49	:! otr !:	You have enabled the recording to disk of OTR conversations. By doing this you are potentially putting yourself and your correspondent in danger. Please consider disabling this policy with "/otr policy default log off". To disable logging for this OTR session, use "/otr log stop"
2015-04-09 04:19:49	:! otr !:	Authenticated secured OTR conversation started.
2015-04-09 04:44:54		[Mikaela away: ircing from phone]
2015-04-09 04:48:37	 Mikaela	oh and i am on sailfisj so otr doesnt work
2015-04-09 07:17:52	 pinkieval	hi
2015-04-09 07:17:56	 pinkieval	wat
2015-04-09 11:54:32	 Mikaela	no otr
2015-04-09 12:55:31		[Mikaela back: gone 08:10:36]
2015-04-09 12:56:22	 Mikaela	I should have guessed that when I finally get OTR, you say something encouraging like that...
2015-04-09 13:43:45		[Mikaela away: Detached from tmux since 2015-04-09 13:43:45+0300]
2015-04-09 14:36:36		[Mikaela away: Detached from tmux since 2015-04-09 13:43:45+0300]
2015-04-09 15:33:45		[Mikaela back: gone 00:56:53]
```

### oliviafox

*We haven't been in speaking terms since this :(*

```
2015-04-09 01:40:36	--	[oliviafox] (~fox@freebsd/lover/oliviafox): fox
2015-04-09 01:40:36	--	[oliviafox] @##abgilpqt+
2015-04-09 01:40:36	--	[oliviafox] leguin.freenode.net (Umeå, SE, EU)
2015-04-09 01:40:36	--	[oliviafox] is using a secure connection
2015-04-09 01:40:37	--	[oliviafox] idle: 00 hours 00 minutes 06 seconds, signon at: 2015-04-08 12:19:35+0300
2015-04-09 01:40:37	--	[oliviafox] is logged in as foxiepaws
2015-04-09 01:40:37	--	[oliviafox] End of /WHOIS list.
2015-04-09 01:41:00	 Mikaela	how do I say that I cannot even make myself eat anything as it's triggering to anyone with eating disorder or who has had it
2015-04-09 01:41:18	 Mikaela	or that I cannot sleep as it can trigger people who have sleeping issues or something
2015-04-09 01:44:04	 oliviafox	you're going a bit far with what i mean by triggers
2015-04-09 01:44:35	 oliviafox	abuse triggers, suicide triggers, self-harm (esp. cutting and burning) are the ones that i really want to reduce
2015-04-09 01:45:11	 Mikaela	and what if there are other triggers of different types?
2015-04-09 01:45:39	 oliviafox	gonna have to pick and choose
2015-04-09 01:45:51	 oliviafox	its just, when you have all these different groups in a channel
2015-04-09 01:45:57	 Mikaela	and after taking the wrong choose, attack
2015-04-09 01:46:07	 oliviafox	for example sex, I really want to talk about it a lot
2015-04-09 01:46:11	 oliviafox	but it can be really triggering
2015-04-09 01:47:24	 Mikaela	there are things in it that would interest me, but I am unable to talk about it
2015-04-09 01:48:32	 oliviafox	because it triggers you
2015-04-09 01:48:53	 Mikaela	what trigger there would be for me?
2015-04-09 01:49:34	 oliviafox	im unsure it just seems to
2015-04-09 02:20:34	 Mikaela	the only solution that I see to that is ban, but even if they make me feel bad meaning it, I just cannot do that and apparently they think that they belong to the channel no matter how they behave towards other people
2015-04-09 02:23:02	 oliviafox	who
2015-04-09 02:23:06	 oliviafox	who are you thinking of banning
2015-04-09 02:23:15	 Mikaela	Euryale
2015-04-09 02:23:30	 oliviafox	you will not
2015-04-09 02:23:35	 oliviafox	i will overturn that right away.
2015-04-09 02:24:01	 Mikaela	why do they and you must pick on me?
2015-04-09 02:24:08	 oliviafox	we aren't picking on you
2015-04-09 02:24:28	 oliviafox	we're trying to deal with the fact that there is a channel thats supposed to be a GSM safe space
2015-04-09 02:24:29	 Mikaela	why you aren't at least apologizing for claiming that I am not part of GSRM?
2015-04-09 02:24:38	 oliviafox	Neither of us insinuated that
2015-04-09 02:24:40	 Mikaela	since when has it been insafe place to anyone?
2015-04-09 02:24:46	 oliviafox	neither of us have said that
2015-04-09 02:25:21	 Mikaela	2015-04-09 01:56:17+0300 < Euryale> you co-founded a channel for gender and sexual minorities yet you don't identify as a gender, or sexual minority even though you /are/
2015-04-09 02:25:21	 Mikaela	what else is this than attacking my identity?
2015-04-09 02:25:40	 Mikaela	what profile of me doesn't say that I am trans or romantic asexual?
2015-04-09 02:25:41	 oliviafox	read the last 4 words
2015-04-09 02:25:43	 oliviafox	please
2015-04-09 02:25:52	 oliviafox	PLEASE READ THE LAST FOUR WORDS
2015-04-09 02:26:09	 Mikaela	yes, so I am gsrm, but I don't identify as one so my identity is attacked, where I didn't identify as any of those?
2015-04-09 02:27:02	 Mikaela	the only thing I have said is hating being trans and ace and that you can also find from my blog if I haven't said it clearly enough on IRC
2015-04-09 02:27:06	 oliviafox	in the part where you said that the channel isn't a queer space which means to both of us gsrm
2015-04-09 02:28:07	 Mikaela	I have only said that it's not queer only space and I really cannot call it as space for "people with experience of intense sexual arousal to atypical objects, situations, or individuals"
2015-04-09 02:28:30	 oliviafox	thats not what queer means
2015-04-09 02:28:34	 Mikaela	queer = pervo = redirect to parafilia = paraphilia
2015-04-09 02:28:40	 oliviafox	you are fucking making it worse
2015-04-09 02:28:43	 oliviafox	and you have i nstulted  me
2015-04-09 02:29:01	 Mikaela	I am sorry for insulting you, but I feel insulted too and I have never heard any kind of apology
2015-04-09 02:29:18	 oliviafox	I am queer, I am a transpan poly amourous woman 
2015-04-09 02:29:28	 oliviafox	No one insulted you like you are insulting us
2015-04-09 02:29:31	 Mikaela	I feel like it was mistake for restoring your flags and I should have just closed the channel and commit suicide
2015-04-09 02:29:39	 Mikaela	and how have I insulted you?
2015-04-09 02:29:41	 oliviafox	you misunderstand what we said, and now use it to attack us both
2015-04-09 02:30:21	 Mikaela	explain what you mean so clearly that I can understand it without misunderstanding, I am still sorry and think I deserve at least apology
2015-04-09 02:32:10	 oliviafox	neither me nor Euryale said that you don't fit into the group
2015-04-09 02:32:31	 Mikaela	Euryale said that I don't identify as gsrm which I do
2015-04-09 02:32:47	 Mikaela	and I really have big need of akicking you both as you don't want to understand anything I say and just make things worse
2015-04-09 02:32:59	 oliviafox	whatever
2015-04-09 02:33:03	 oliviafox	make the channel hell
2015-04-09 02:33:23	 oliviafox	it was a mistake to try to reason with you
2015-04-09 02:33:27	 Mikaela	no, I will kill myself
2015-04-09 02:33:29	 oliviafox	I don't want you to kill yourself
2015-04-09 02:33:30	 Mikaela	be happy
2015-04-09 02:33:35	 Mikaela	talk with me then
2015-04-09 02:33:36	 oliviafox	this is unfair
2015-04-09 02:33:44	 oliviafox	I do not want you to kill yourself but i cannot reason with you
2015-04-09 02:33:50	 oliviafox	so unless i say exactly what YOU WANT ME TO SAY
2015-04-09 02:33:52	 Mikaela	please at least try
2015-04-09 02:34:10	 Mikaela	I have no other way than death i you don't
2015-04-09 02:34:11	 oliviafox	you will kill yourself 
2015-04-09 02:34:11	 oliviafox	right?
2015-04-09 02:34:25	 oliviafox	you are  being abusive.
2015-04-09 02:34:28	 Mikaela	if I have no other choice, but I am just trying to understand
2015-04-09 02:34:34	 Mikaela	why it's OK to attack my identity?
2015-04-09 02:34:44	 oliviafox	Im oging to be sick
2015-04-09 02:34:46	 Mikaela	why do you must call me as queer even after I say that I am not OK?
2015-04-09 02:34:49	 Mikaela	I am sick
2015-04-09 02:36:10	 oliviafox	Im going to get someone to try to talk to you, outside, I do not feel safe right now and as i get defensive things will not be okay
2015-04-09 02:36:18	 oliviafox	Okay
2015-04-09 02:36:30	 oliviafox	I need to calm down because i am triggered extremely bad
2015-04-09 02:36:45	 Mikaela	I would also need calming down, but nothing good will happen if no one tries talking
2015-04-09 04:44:54		[Mikaela away: ircing from phone]
2015-04-09 12:55:31		[Mikaela back: gone 08:10:36]
2015-04-09 13:43:45		[Mikaela away: Detached from tmux since 2015-04-09 13:43:45+0300]
2015-04-09 14:36:36		[Mikaela away: Detached from tmux since 2015-04-09 13:43:45+0300]
2015-04-09 15:33:45		[Mikaela back: gone 00:56:53]
```

## yyyy-mm-dd ##asexuality

### yyyy-mm-dd to todays anxiety

### so what is wrong